san-san new or old opening

[SmoothOper]

Previously I was under the impression that san-san was an older opening that wasn't fashionable these days. Then I read this wiki that claimed that white playing it came about after the introduction of komi. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komi_go#Ef ... n_strategy

Thinking about it further, I hadn't seen any players prior to Sakata Eio playing this opening. Are there any players that played it prior? Being consistent with the wiki article, I would expect that it would have still been a valid(if not fashionable) strategy for black.

[HermanHiddema]

3-3 as an opening play was first popularized during the shinfuseki period (1920s and 1930s). It's popularity has varied since then.

It existed before then, but was exceptionally rare. Sanchi played it as in 1838, Shusaku as in 1844. Especially in the second case it can be considered a special strategy given the rest of the board (if there is a corner still open at move 28, anything goes).

There are also, in the GoGoD collection, a few 18th century Chinese games where it occurs.

[DrStraw]

I think that the concept of trying to take the corner with one move (3-3 or 4-4) was not really considered during the Edo period and that it is very much a modern concept. As you say, Sakata played it a lot and reading his books in the early '70s influenced me a lot. I still play it frequently.

Not that I really understand what I am doing with it, but I've played it enough that I probably understand it better than most of my opponents.

[Eerika Norvio]

I know almost nothing about opening theory, as the result of my games doesn't really depend of my opening. A fellow 1 dan said he appreciates san-san because of its "great tenuki potential". I have mixed experiences. Sometimes I've felt it's too low.

I had a book of Yilun Yang where it was said that san-san is usually played by white, in situations where one last corner is empty and white doesn't want to give black any nice approach moves. Might be that without komi, it was considered too slow for white. But if black didn't play it either, there might be other reasons.

[gowan]

One issue with the 3-3 point as an initial move in the corner is that it is hard to develop further from it. Because it is so low it is hard to build a moyo using it. It's a little like thickness where we have the proverb "Stay away from thickness" which applies to both sides. Takemiya supposedly once said "A stone on the 3-3 point is so close to the edge of the board that the stone might fall off the board so I don't feel like playing there"

[Eerika Norvio]

Yea, that's why you can play that if you want to make nearby area uninteresting. Or so I guess... if I play it the stone often turns out just to be uninteresting in itself.

I had a tournament game against a 2 dan where I had sente to claim the last empty corner. There already was surprisingly much stuff on the board. Any other move in the corner would have given the opponent nice inducing move sequence. There it felt like a perfect move. But it wasn't "strictly fuseki". The corner was still empty when there was some fighting in the center.