It is currently Sun May 18, 2025 4:42 pm

View unanswered posts | View active topics View unread posts | View new posts | View your posts


Board index » Improve Your Game » Game Analysis

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]



Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 1
  [ 15 posts ] 
  Print view Previous topic | Next topic 
Author Message
Offline tsuhre
 Post subject: A winning game that could have ended very badly
Post #1 Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:19 am 
Dies in gote
User avatar

Posts: 20
Location: Sonora, CA
Liked others: 8
Was liked: 3
Rank: KGS 8 kyu
KGS: Tsuhre
Universal go server handle: Tsuhre
I'm hoping to get an opinion on how I played in this match against my friend MjMjMjMj on the KGS go servers. MjMjMjMj played black in this game and I played white with a 0.5 komi. I ended up winning the match, but there were several moves that were questionable and I think if my friend were a stronger player, he would have immediately capitalized on those mistakes.



Some things I think I did well in this match:
    *I had a good fight in the upper left and lower right corner.
    *I played Tenuki at mostly appropriate moments (not counting the upper right corner tenuki, which was horrible)
    *I built a heavy wall of influence in the lower left.
    *my direction of play was mostly good.
    *I managed to create mutual life in the lower left corner.

Some things I think I did badly:
    *I was unable to save any of my stones in the upper right hand corner
    *I made the very dangerous gamble to give up the upper right corner in exchange for aji in the lower right corner.
    *I managed to make a wall facing my group in the upper left corner, but the way I did it was weak and could have easily been played against
    *My opening move on the upper right 3,4 point probably should have cost me the game. It was basically giving my opponent the opportunity to ask for a 3rd corner.

Anyway, let me know what you guys think. I appreciate the feedback.

_________________
I find more and more that my battles on the board reflect my battles off of it.


Last edited by tsuhre on Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline lemmata
 Post subject: Re: A winning game that could have ended very badly
Post #2 Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:56 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 370
Liked others: 91
Was liked: 254
Rank: Weak
Here's one small thing: White 1 is almost a net and gives you a nice squeeze if black tries to escape with 2 (other moves fail). All of white's stones are doing something, but black's 8-stone dumpling is doing almost nothing. From that standpoint, this should give white quite an advantage so black will probably play away rather than play 2.

Diagram:
Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 7 O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . 9 4 8 X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This post by lemmata was liked by: tsuhre
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline tsuhre
 Post subject: Re: A winning game that could have ended very badly
Post #3 Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:09 am 
Dies in gote
User avatar

Posts: 20
Location: Sonora, CA
Liked others: 8
Was liked: 3
Rank: KGS 8 kyu
KGS: Tsuhre
Universal go server handle: Tsuhre
lemmata wrote:
Here's one small thing: White 1 is almost a net and gives you a nice squeeze if black tries to escape with 2 (other moves fail). All of white's stones are doing something, but black's 8-stone dumpling is doing almost nothing. From that standpoint, this should give white quite an advantage so black will probably play away rather than play 2.

Diagram:
Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 7 O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . 9 4 8 X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


True. I'd be somewhat afraid of the cutting points next to 3 and 9. Also. I doubt my friend would have responded with 2. I think that it is much more likely that he would extend and then if I responded either play a one space jump or tenuki to build up the left side of the board. I do like that you're variation vastly decreases blacks potential for a wall though.

Here's how I imagine gameplay would go if White played at 1

Diagram:[hide]
Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . 5 . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Which leaves me with 3 very weak groups split by blacks wall.

_________________
I find more and more that my battles on the board reflect my battles off of it.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #4 Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:16 am 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2076
GD Posts: 312

This post by EdLee was liked by: tsuhre
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline lemmata
 Post subject: Re: A winning game that could have ended very badly
Post #5 Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:20 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 370
Liked others: 91
Was liked: 254
Rank: Weak
You forgot a very important stone that was on the board. Your diagram doesn't work if the missing stone is restored.
tsuhre wrote:
True. I'd be somewhat afraid of the cutting points next to 3 and 9. Also. I doubt my friend would have responded with 2. I think that it is much more likely that he would extend and then if I responded either play a one space jump or tenuki to build up the left side of the board. I do like that you're variation vastly decreases blacks potential for a wall though.

Here's how I imagine gameplay would go if White played at 1
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline tsuhre
 Post subject: Re:
Post #6 Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:21 am 
Dies in gote
User avatar

Posts: 20
Location: Sonora, CA
Liked others: 8
Was liked: 3
Rank: KGS 8 kyu
KGS: Tsuhre
Universal go server handle: Tsuhre
EdLee wrote:


Thanks for the variations. I'm glad that you did variations for both players. I forgot to distinguish it in my original post (edited now) but I played as white for this game.

_________________
I find more and more that my battles on the board reflect my battles off of it.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline tsuhre
 Post subject: Re: A winning game that could have ended very badly
Post #7 Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:22 am 
Dies in gote
User avatar

Posts: 20
Location: Sonora, CA
Liked others: 8
Was liked: 3
Rank: KGS 8 kyu
KGS: Tsuhre
Universal go server handle: Tsuhre
lemmata wrote:
You forgot a very important stone that was on the board. Your diagram doesn't work if the missing stone is restored.
tsuhre wrote:
True. I'd be somewhat afraid of the cutting points next to 3 and 9. Also. I doubt my friend would have responded with 2. I think that it is much more likely that he would extend and then if I responded either play a one space jump or tenuki to build up the left side of the board. I do like that you're variation vastly decreases blacks potential for a wall though.

Here's how I imagine gameplay would go if White played at 1


Which stone did I miss?

_________________
I find more and more that my battles on the board reflect my battles off of it.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #8 Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:23 am 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2076
GD Posts: 312
tsuhre wrote:
...but I played as white for this game.
Yes, I knew you played White. In the variations you can see how B could've replied better to foil some of your moves.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #9 Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:24 am 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2076
GD Posts: 312
lemmata,
lemmata wrote:
Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 7 O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , 9 4 8 X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Aren't you missing the important :wc: stone in your diagram?
Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . , . W X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline tsuhre
 Post subject: Re:
Post #10 Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:25 am 
Dies in gote
User avatar

Posts: 20
Location: Sonora, CA
Liked others: 8
Was liked: 3
Rank: KGS 8 kyu
KGS: Tsuhre
Universal go server handle: Tsuhre
EdLee wrote:
tsuhre wrote:
...but I played as white for this game.
Yes, I knew you played White. In the variations you can see how B could've replied better to foil some of your moves.


Was just hoping to clarify for others :). The variations are interesting. It would have been a much different game if black had played some of those moves.

_________________
I find more and more that my battles on the board reflect my battles off of it.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline tsuhre
 Post subject: Re:
Post #11 Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:27 am 
Dies in gote
User avatar

Posts: 20
Location: Sonora, CA
Liked others: 8
Was liked: 3
Rank: KGS 8 kyu
KGS: Tsuhre
Universal go server handle: Tsuhre
EdLee wrote:
lemmata,
lemmata wrote:
Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 7 O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , 9 4 8 X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Aren't you missing the important :wc: stone in your diagram?
Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . , . W X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Haha, Yes, you're right. Sorry, I don't have the game memorized yet and I thought I had played that move later.

_________________
I find more and more that my battles on the board reflect my battles off of it.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline lemmata
 Post subject: Re: A winning game that could have ended very badly
Post #12 Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:28 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 370
Liked others: 91
Was liked: 254
Rank: Weak
tsuhre wrote:
Which stone did I miss?

N4 has a white stone in your game record. You don't see it in my diagram because it is filled by black 8 after black captures it. That N4 stone takes away one of black's precious liberties.

Also, when black's liberty situation is this bad, white should not be afraid of the cuts at 3,9. It is good to be severe at times when you're in a position of strength. :)

EDIT: I see that Ed found the missing move, although he seems to think that I missed it, too. :)


Last edited by lemmata on Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #13 Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:30 am 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2076
GD Posts: 312
tsuhre wrote:
Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . 5 a X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Two things:
(1) missing important W stone at (a);
(2) :w1: and :w3: very bad shape in your variation -- broken shape for W:
Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #14 Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:34 am 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2076
GD Posts: 312
lemmata wrote:
Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 7 O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . 9 4 8 X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Oh, yes:
Go Diagram
:b8: at :wc:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :b8: at :wc:
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 7 O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , 9 4 W X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline tsuhre
 Post subject: Re:
Post #15 Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:35 am 
Dies in gote
User avatar

Posts: 20
Location: Sonora, CA
Liked others: 8
Was liked: 3
Rank: KGS 8 kyu
KGS: Tsuhre
Universal go server handle: Tsuhre
EdLee wrote:
tsuhre wrote:
Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . 5 a X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Two things:
(1) missing important W stone at (a);
(2) :w1: and :w3: very bad shape in your variation -- broken shape for W:
Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Agreed. I think thats why I was confused. If the stone had not been there at (a) I would never have played a move like 1

_________________
I find more and more that my battles on the board reflect my battles off of it.
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 1
  [ 15 posts ] 

Board index » Improve Your Game » Game Analysis

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group