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 Post subject: A winning game that could have ended very badly
Post #1 Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:19 am 
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I'm hoping to get an opinion on how I played in this match against my friend MjMjMjMj on the KGS go servers. MjMjMjMj played black in this game and I played white with a 0.5 komi. I ended up winning the match, but there were several moves that were questionable and I think if my friend were a stronger player, he would have immediately capitalized on those mistakes.



Some things I think I did well in this match:
    *I had a good fight in the upper left and lower right corner.
    *I played Tenuki at mostly appropriate moments (not counting the upper right corner tenuki, which was horrible)
    *I built a heavy wall of influence in the lower left.
    *my direction of play was mostly good.
    *I managed to create mutual life in the lower left corner.

Some things I think I did badly:
    *I was unable to save any of my stones in the upper right hand corner
    *I made the very dangerous gamble to give up the upper right corner in exchange for aji in the lower right corner.
    *I managed to make a wall facing my group in the upper left corner, but the way I did it was weak and could have easily been played against
    *My opening move on the upper right 3,4 point probably should have cost me the game. It was basically giving my opponent the opportunity to ask for a 3rd corner.

Anyway, let me know what you guys think. I appreciate the feedback.

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I find more and more that my battles on the board reflect my battles off of it.


Last edited by tsuhre on Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: A winning game that could have ended very badly
Post #2 Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:56 am 
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Here's one small thing: White 1 is almost a net and gives you a nice squeeze if black tries to escape with 2 (other moves fail). All of white's stones are doing something, but black's 8-stone dumpling is doing almost nothing. From that standpoint, this should give white quite an advantage so black will probably play away rather than play 2.

Diagram:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 7 O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . 9 4 8 X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This post by lemmata was liked by: tsuhre
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 Post subject: Re: A winning game that could have ended very badly
Post #3 Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:09 am 
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lemmata wrote:
Here's one small thing: White 1 is almost a net and gives you a nice squeeze if black tries to escape with 2 (other moves fail). All of white's stones are doing something, but black's 8-stone dumpling is doing almost nothing. From that standpoint, this should give white quite an advantage so black will probably play away rather than play 2.

Diagram:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 7 O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . 9 4 8 X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


True. I'd be somewhat afraid of the cutting points next to 3 and 9. Also. I doubt my friend would have responded with 2. I think that it is much more likely that he would extend and then if I responded either play a one space jump or tenuki to build up the left side of the board. I do like that you're variation vastly decreases blacks potential for a wall though.

Here's how I imagine gameplay would go if White played at 1

Diagram:[hide]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . 5 . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Which leaves me with 3 very weak groups split by blacks wall.

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Post #4 Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:16 am 
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This post by EdLee was liked by: tsuhre
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 Post subject: Re: A winning game that could have ended very badly
Post #5 Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:20 am 
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You forgot a very important stone that was on the board. Your diagram doesn't work if the missing stone is restored.
tsuhre wrote:
True. I'd be somewhat afraid of the cutting points next to 3 and 9. Also. I doubt my friend would have responded with 2. I think that it is much more likely that he would extend and then if I responded either play a one space jump or tenuki to build up the left side of the board. I do like that you're variation vastly decreases blacks potential for a wall though.

Here's how I imagine gameplay would go if White played at 1

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Post #6 Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:21 am 
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EdLee wrote:


Thanks for the variations. I'm glad that you did variations for both players. I forgot to distinguish it in my original post (edited now) but I played as white for this game.

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 Post subject: Re: A winning game that could have ended very badly
Post #7 Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:22 am 
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lemmata wrote:
You forgot a very important stone that was on the board. Your diagram doesn't work if the missing stone is restored.
tsuhre wrote:
True. I'd be somewhat afraid of the cutting points next to 3 and 9. Also. I doubt my friend would have responded with 2. I think that it is much more likely that he would extend and then if I responded either play a one space jump or tenuki to build up the left side of the board. I do like that you're variation vastly decreases blacks potential for a wall though.

Here's how I imagine gameplay would go if White played at 1


Which stone did I miss?

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Post #8 Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:23 am 
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tsuhre wrote:
...but I played as white for this game.
Yes, I knew you played White. In the variations you can see how B could've replied better to foil some of your moves.

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Post #9 Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:24 am 
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lemmata,
lemmata wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 7 O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , 9 4 8 X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Aren't you missing the important :wc: stone in your diagram?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . , . W X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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Post #10 Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:25 am 
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EdLee wrote:
tsuhre wrote:
...but I played as white for this game.
Yes, I knew you played White. In the variations you can see how B could've replied better to foil some of your moves.


Was just hoping to clarify for others :). The variations are interesting. It would have been a much different game if black had played some of those moves.

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Post #11 Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:27 am 
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EdLee wrote:
lemmata,
lemmata wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 7 O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , 9 4 8 X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Aren't you missing the important :wc: stone in your diagram?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . , . W X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Haha, Yes, you're right. Sorry, I don't have the game memorized yet and I thought I had played that move later.

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 Post subject: Re: A winning game that could have ended very badly
Post #12 Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:28 am 
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tsuhre wrote:
Which stone did I miss?

N4 has a white stone in your game record. You don't see it in my diagram because it is filled by black 8 after black captures it. That N4 stone takes away one of black's precious liberties.

Also, when black's liberty situation is this bad, white should not be afraid of the cuts at 3,9. It is good to be severe at times when you're in a position of strength. :)

EDIT: I see that Ed found the missing move, although he seems to think that I missed it, too. :)


Last edited by lemmata on Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #13 Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:30 am 
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tsuhre wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . 5 a X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Two things:
(1) missing important W stone at (a);
(2) :w1: and :w3: very bad shape in your variation -- broken shape for W:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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Post #14 Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:34 am 
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lemmata wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 7 O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . 9 4 8 X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Oh, yes:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :b8: at :wc:
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 7 O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , 9 4 W X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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Post #15 Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:35 am 
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Location: Sonora, CA
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Rank: KGS 8 kyu
KGS: Tsuhre
Universal go server handle: Tsuhre
EdLee wrote:
tsuhre wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . 5 a X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Two things:
(1) missing important W stone at (a);
(2) :w1: and :w3: very bad shape in your variation -- broken shape for W:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Agreed. I think thats why I was confused. If the stone had not been there at (a) I would never have played a move like 1

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