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 Post subject: Re: How to get started with joseki?
Post #41 Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:44 am 
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Amelia wrote:
Just getting a feeling for "what do I do if my opponent pincers? Oh, I can invade the corner, never thought of that!" is quite enough at our low level, and for this joseki can kinda help, IMO. It doesn't mean that you're allowed to stop thinking though.

This expresses some of my thinking very well, however Bill and others have made some very powerful arguments against learning joseki, so I am going to back off from anything other than a superficial awareness of them.

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 Post subject: Re: How to get started with joseki?
Post #42 Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:23 pm 
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PeterPeter wrote:
Amelia wrote:
Just getting a feeling for "what do I do if my opponent pincers? Oh, I can invade the corner, never thought of that!" is quite enough at our low level, and for this joseki can kinda help, IMO. It doesn't mean that you're allowed to stop thinking though.

This expresses some of my thinking very well, however Bill and others have made some very powerful arguments against learning joseki, so I am going to back off from anything other than a superficial awareness of them.


It seem like I overdid it a bit. :( Here was my suggestion, which may have gotten lost among other things that I wrote: viewtopic.php?p=131369#p131369
:)

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 Post subject: Re: How to get started with joseki?
Post #43 Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:58 am 
Oza
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gowan wrote:
Start thinking about issues like dividing up the corner area, one player getting territory, the other outside power, or I get the right side, he gets the left side.


This seems like joseki in a nutshell. The only question left is: "how do I get what I want?"

Sometimes when action starts in a corner, I have an idea what I am striving for, but more often than not, my plans go horribly astray, and I find myself either giving up way too much or settling for something entirely different. It's these cases where Bill's advice to play around with the position after the game to see how things might have gone differently is probably most valuable.

Unfortunately for me personally, I find this extremely difficult, as I have so little trust in my own judgement of possible continuations that the "results" seem utterly random, but if you are able to play around with this sort of thing, my guess is that it has the potential to be highly beneficial.

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 Post subject: Re: How to get started with joseki?
Post #44 Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:21 am 
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daal wrote:
gowan wrote:
Start thinking about issues like dividing up the corner area, one player getting territory, the other outside power, or I get the right side, he gets the left side.

This seems like joseki in a nutshell. The only question left is: "how do I get what I want?"

Sometimes when action starts in a corner, I have an idea what I am striving for, but more often than not, my plans go horribly astray, and I find myself either giving up way too much or settling for something entirely different.

Agreed.

I am confident that I could invade at A and live in that corner, but I don't think I could prevent white getting a favourable left-facing wall out of it. So I would choose to play somewhere else.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: How to get started with joseki?
Post #45 Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:58 am 
Gosei
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Although 'a' is natural and a straight-forward way to play, I am also reluctant to play this move in this situation. But it is not wrong and there are plenty of possibilities to hold White's Moyo in check.

The important part about not wanting to play 'a' in this situation is to think about not approaching White's corner stone in the first place.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There is nothing wrong with this move. Later you can extend and approach at 'a' without the possibility to get pincered.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

When White pincers here, you have several possibilities ('a', jumping out at 'b', attaching on top of the pincer stone at 'c') but Tenuki is not an option, I think.
There are some very nice sgf-files on this forum on how Go Seigen would play in a similiar situation (how to counter San-Ren-Sei as White) but I couldn't find them : / In a nutshell they recommend to jump out here (to flatten White's Moyo) and pincer the white pincer stone.

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