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 Post subject: Re: (Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries
Post #21 Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:34 am 
Oza

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終ふ is the equivalent of modern shimau and is just a way of emphasising the main verb in the -te form. It's like the English use of adverbs to make expressive adverbial verbs (e.g. listen up, fall down instead of just listen or fall).

You have also omitted the meaning of 一: the whole (group).

A tip: I used to joke with my daughter, when she was studying Japanese. that once you can reliably work out the subject of a Japanese text you are PhD standard. It's only a slight joke, and most important is to ignore those who say some Japanese sentences don't have subjects. Assume EVERY Japanese sentence has a subject. It may very, very often be omitted but it still has one.

In go, it's useful to treat a sentence such as 白八九を怠り as ellipsis for 白は白八九を怠り, the fact that the actual sentence begins with 白 being the signpost that tells us what to supply. There is a lot of similar signposting, e.g. ところが = 'but' is usually a signpost telling us that the (unmentioned) subject has changed, and verbs such as kureru and morau have a similar function.

This makes the translation more natural (and accurate): If White omits 89 and so suffers Black's descent to B, the eye shape of his whole group will be lost.

(Note the 'will' - you have to supply the extra English tenses in classical texts even more than you do in translating modern Japanese, but you will already be familiar with that from Chinese).

Quote:
Presumably this has the consonant-doubler っ, so "無くなって", not "無くなつて".


Chiisai tsu is only modern spelling. The old texts don't use the small ya yu yo etc, nor do they even make the sha shu sho sounds the same way, and the way can vary (e.g. shi-u or shi-fu) - you need to know the etymology if you want to be accurate. So copying the original as Shenoute is doing seems best.


This post by John Fairbairn was liked by 2 people: ez4u, Richard Hunter
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 Post subject: Re: (Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries
Post #22 Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:41 am 
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Thanks John Fairbairn !

Diagram 2 (p.4)

* 黒二で若し三、と受ければ白も十七と應ずる位のものであつたらう乎。

若し moshi if/in case/supposing
受ければ ukereba conditional of ukeru
應ずる ouzuru answer, reply, accept
位 kurai
もの mono thing
乎 ka question mark

This is a hard one, with two main problems:
- what to do with kurai no mono? Literally, it seems to mean "a thing of the sort", "something like" but I found references online to an idiom kurai no mono having something to do with "only, the only thing"
- -rau ka, Based on Henderson's (Handbook of Japanese Grammar) example mono no nijuudo mo yattarō ka "I probably tried it twenty times, I guess", I take it as indicating probability. But comments in the same book make me wonder wether this should be understood as expressing doubt.

So at this stage I have several possible translations (none of which even close to the solution I guess :)). The first two differ by the nuance given by kurai no mono and the last one takes -rau ka as expressing doubt rather than probability.

Translation(s)
"At black 2, if (black) defends with 3, there was probably a thing of the sort of white also answering with 17, I guess." >

" :b2:, if black defends at 3, white would also probably have answered with something like 17."
" :b2:, if black defends at 3, white also could probably only have answered with 17."

" :b2:, if black defends at 3, I doubt white would also have answered with something like 17."

(17 being the marked intersection)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . X X O O . . M . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . X , . X . X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . X O O . O X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . X . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O . X . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O . X . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . . X O O . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X X X X O . X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X O X X O . X O X , O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . X O O O O . X O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X . . . . . 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: (Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries
Post #23 Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:28 am 
Oza

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The idea is "Had Black, instead of 3, responded at 2, I can't imagine there would have been anything better for White than to answer here, too, at 17."

Kurai no mono does mean 'the only thing/person' but in the special sense of this is the best, and so only sensible, alternative. You can think of it as implying the ellipsis ga aru

The ending -ou ka usually means "I wonder if", i.e. it is a signal that the subject is the speaker.

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 Post subject: Re: (Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries
Post #24 Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:35 am 
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Thanks.

The next comment is shorter.

* 白六五が筋である。

Translation
" :w65: is the suji."

I chickened out and did not translate suji. The page at Sensei's Library emphasizes that suji does not refer merely to one single move and has "a strong dynamic flavour". If so, is it right to suppose that the main raison d'être of the comment here is not as much to point at 65 as a local good move than to underline the fact that it is not played immediately but only after the exchanges 55-64, making the top stronger?

(55 is the marked stone)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm56
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . . O O . X X O O . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . X , . X . X . X . . 8 7 . X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . 4 6 . 9 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 3 W . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X 2 1 X . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O O O O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . X O . O X X X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O X X X . . X O O . O X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . X . . . X . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . X O O O X . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X O . X O O . X . . |
$$ | . O O O O . . . X O O . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . X X X X O . X O O O . X . |
$$ | O O O X X X X O X X O . X O X , O O . |
$$ | . O O X O . X O O O O . X O X O . X . |
$$ | O X X O . O X . . . . . X O X O O . O |
$$ | . . X . O . X . 0 . . . . X X X O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: (Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries
Post #25 Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:47 am 
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* 黒七十乃至白七九の結果は格別白が損を被つた譯でもない。

結果 kekka result/consequence
格別 kakubetsu particular(ly)/special(ly)/exceptional(ly)
損 sokonau loss/disadvantage
被る koumuru to suffer/receive/sustain
譯 wake, variant of 訳, jisho.org has "conclusion from reasoning/judgement or calculation based on something read or heard; reason/cause/meaning; circumstances/situation"
demo nai "not exactly"

Translation
"As for the result of :b70: to :w79:, this is not exactly a situation/conclusion (of) particularly-white-having-suffered-loss" > "As to the result of the sequence :b70: - :w79:, it cannot really be said that white in particular incurred a loss."

(the marked stones are captured during the sequence)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm70
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . . O O . X X O O . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . X , . X . X . X . . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . O O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X O X X . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O O O O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . X O . O X X X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O X X X . . X O O O O X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . X . . . X . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . X O O O X . . . O X 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X O . X O O . X 8 0 |
$$ | . O O O O . . . X O O . X X O . X 6 . |
$$ | . O X X . . X X X X O . X O O O 4 B 2 |
$$ | O O O X X X X O X X O . X O X 3 O O B |
$$ | . O O X O . X O O O O . X O X W 7 X O |
$$ | O X X O . O X . . . . . X O X W W 1 O |
$$ | . . X . O . X . O . . . X X X X W 5 . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: (Just enough) Japanese to read classical commentaries
Post #26 Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 10:13 am 
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Last comment, it is not exactly about the game but about a mistake in the game record. I think I've got the gist of it but there are several things in the ast part of the sentence that I do not understand clearly - especially the double を at the end (is there an ellipse here?) and the use of を after an adjective like yoshinaki.

Diagram 3
*黒四十の劫立てに先だつて、前譜黒六四以降のどの手かで黒の交換が打れたのであるが、その正しき手順を今、確かめるに由無きを深く遺憾とする。

劫立 koudate ko threat
先だつて sendatte recently/previously; in combination with ni "prior to"?
前譜 preceding diagram
以降 ikou since
どの手か dono te ka some move
no dearu litt. there is (a situation) of...?
交換 koukan exchange
-reta passive past
dearu ga with ga = but
正しき tadashiki correct
手順 tejun process/procedure/sequence
今 ima now
確かめる to check/confirm/make sure
由無き yoshinaki absurd
深く遺憾とす "it is to be deeply regretted"
X o 深く遺憾とす I deeply regret X/it is to be deeply regretted that...

(Very tentative) Translation
"Prior to black's ko threat of :b40:, the exchange of black い and white ろ had been made at some move after :b64: of the previous diagram, but now the correct sequence (is forgotten?), it is to be deeply regretted that there was a mistake (an absurdity?) in the checking."
> At some point before black's ko threat at :b40:, the exchange of black い and white ろ had been made but..."


What I find interesting is the various ways editors have dealt with the problem. SGF files I've seen place the exchange い/ろ exchange just before the move 40/41 of the diagram in 打碁選集, producing a different game record.

The editors of the Chinese edition of Shusai's Complete Games placed the moves but did not number them, which must be troublesome to people replaying the game :) .

(the black い-white ろ exchange is marked a-b; 64 of the previous diagram is the marked stone)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm40
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O O O . . . . b 1 O O O . |
$$ | . X . X O O X X X O O . . O a X O . O |
$$ | . O X X O O O X . X . . O X . X X O . |
$$ | O . O X X O X . X . O O . B . . . X O |
$$ | . O O O X X . . . X X O . . . X . X . |
$$ | X O X X X . X X X X O X X . . X . . . |
$$ | O X X . . . . O O O O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | O O O O X . X O . O X X X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O X X X . . X O O O O X . . O X . X |
$$ | . O . . . . X . . . X X X . . O . X O |
$$ | . O X . . . . X O O O X . . . O X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X X O . X O O . X O O |
$$ | . O O O O . . . X O O . X X O . X O . |
$$ | . O X X . . X X X X O . X O O O O . O |
$$ | O O O X X X X O X X O . X O X X O O . |
$$ | O O O X O X X O O O O . X O X . X X O |
$$ | O X X O . O X X O . . . X O X . . X O |
$$ | . O X . O X X . O . O . X X X X . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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