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 Post subject: Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)
Post #41 Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:32 pm 
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ketchup wrote:
walleye wrote:

for ketchup
What sequence of moves are you expecting after your 26?


For Walleye

...I'm aware this could be due to my bad reading too though...


ketchup:
So you've done some reading. Can you show us just one variation? In your opinion, what would be a reasonable sequence of moves for both players? I will even make it easier for you. Just tell us what do you think will happen after black responds at F18.

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 Post subject: Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)
Post #42 Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:13 am 
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walleye wrote:
ketchup:
So you've done some reading. Can you show us just one variation? In your opinion, what would be a reasonable sequence of moves for both players? I will even make it easier for you. Just tell us what do you think will happen after black responds at F18.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm26 Captures: B:0 W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 2 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 X X 1 X 6 . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O 5 . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is too easy on white, so I think at 31, it will be at 33 instead. The aji of 32 is too much to allow.

Clean capture hurts white:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm28 Captures: B:0 W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . b O O 3 a . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This leaves white way too weak and also white ruins the aji this way(30 is bad). He has to play catch up, and cannot pincer as he would like due to a and b here.

White should take the option to play solidly here I believe. Playing at the atari at e18 directly.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm28 Captures: B:0 W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 X 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This last variation is the most solid in my view. I do not believe the result is fun for black to have to suffer, especially when you consider the overall stones. It pretty much comes down to what black feels is the best play.

Lastly, just in case. This just does not make sense(to me) for black to play this way. The overall strength of his top left stones is way too little to allow this. I also feel I can ignore a ladder breaker on the right side, and take the g17 stone if needed.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm28 Captures: B:0 W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O X 3 . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
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 Post subject: Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)
Post #43 Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:37 am 
Dies in gote

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Captures: B:0 W:0 Move 27
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I guess I don't have much of a choice here.
What is important in this variation is that you have to be wary of a move at a. He could play this way.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Captures: B:0 W:0 Move 26
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . c B b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Or, which needs some deeper analysis, he decides to cut first at b or c. All I want here is to be settled in a satisfying way and have sente to get the last big points I mentioned already. After that I will try to chase his right group through the center and build thickness underneath or above it.

If I have thickness above it, I can invade his top right group. Although this seems a bit difficult because he played a slower move there, making an ogeima instead of an 3 space diagonal extension.

So the plan is to build some thickness underneath to get a nice moyo on bottom. So this is my wished outcome:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Captures: B:0 W:0 Move 26
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . # . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . e d . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . a . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


To have some good working stones at around a and b.

Besides, any exchange on the left side, like for example d for e, will help me put more pressure on his group on the right.

I am glad I played :bs: . It looks helpful to my plans ;)

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 Post subject: Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)
Post #44 Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:14 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm21 Captures: B:0 W:0 Move 28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Happy New Year!

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 Post subject: Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)
Post #45 Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:41 am 
Dies in gote

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Happy new year :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Captures: B:0 W:0 Move 29
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O B . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)
Post #46 Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:16 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm21 Captures: B:0 W:0 Move 30
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 0 X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)
Post #47 Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:05 pm 
Dies in gote

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Captures: B:1 W:0 Move 31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



obvious sente.. well i guess he will play like this. And I will decide about if I play a or b first. Both are interesting for me, neither seem bad. But there is no way this is going to end up in gote for me. So i'm totally fine

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Captures: B:0 W:0 Move 30
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . b O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)
Post #48 Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:36 pm 
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KGS: Aphelion02
This is crude / vulgar imo. W should have played 1 directly instead of at the marked point. Now black is stronger with better shape after the captures.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X C X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)
Post #49 Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 6:04 pm 
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Aphelion wrote:
This is crude / vulgar imo. W should have played 1 directly instead of at the marked point. Now black is stronger with better shape after the captures.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X C X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Even worse is that black can push at a and cut at b because white can't capture in a ladder anymore. That means black d18 is sente since white needs to defend against the cut. Black can defend :bc: by extending down the side and :wc: has lost its original meaning of building thickness to attack the pincer stone.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . a W O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . b . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This all makes sense in my head (at the time of writing) but I could be wrong. As always corrections are welcome if you think I made a mistake.

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 Post subject: Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)
Post #50 Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:25 pm 
Dies in gote

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@Aphelion
What is interesting is that in many situations, this :w1: is a good move. This does not seem to be one of those situations though. In fact it is a good example of Joseki poisoning. I think Go Seigen sensei's words say it best. 'Choosing Joseki without paying attention to the surrounding position is like taking aspirin for a cold instead of a headache...' or something like that :).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X C X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Instead of :w1: in the game, I thought the following idea was more interesting.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 7 4 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 X X 3 X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . 2 . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Continuing...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 8 2 1 O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 5 3 X X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | 6 4 7 . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White 9 = :b3: Black 10 = :w4:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . 6 . 4 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X 2 X X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | X X O 1 O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | 5 3 O . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think this sequence makes better use of white's stones around the board. I think this sacrifice strategy is particularly good for White because his thickness is almost perfect and the
two :bc: stones have become an attractive target.

If black in the second diagram extends to :w3: instead of the hane at :b2: the situation becomes more complicated. At the least white can live in the corner, but there is also the potential for a big ko. White has a more ko material than Black, so this should be to White's advantage. Even if White loses some stones on the outside, the exchange of :w1: for :b2: in the initial diagram makes it bearable because Black will end up somewhat over-concentrated.

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)
Post #51 Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:48 pm 
Tengen
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OGS: magicwand
youngjae wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . 6 . 4 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X 2 X X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | X X O 1 O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | 5 3 O . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think this sequence makes better use of white's stones around the board. I think this sacrifice strategy is particularly good for White because his thickness is almost perfect and the
two :bc: stones have become an attractive target.

If black in the second diagram extends to :w3: instead of the hane at :b2: the situation becomes more complicated. At the least white can live in the corner, but there is also the potential for a big ko. White has a more ko material than Black, so this should be to White's advantage. Even if White loses some stones on the outside, the exchange of :w1: for :b2: in the initial diagram makes it bearable because Black will end up somewhat over-concentrated.

Thoughts?


black dont have answer to 1 and play as below.. i think black is fine with this variation.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | X X O 1 O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
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The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

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 Post subject: Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)
Post #52 Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:02 pm 
Dies in gote

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@Magicwand
Thank you Magicwand, I missed that :).

In that case. If White plays :w1: here first the sequence still works I think.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | X X O . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Do you have any other ideas as to how white could have played differently in the game? I would be interested to know how you would have played.

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 Post subject: Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)
Post #53 Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:10 pm 
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@youngjae
Even if the sequence works, why would black play it all out? After white d18, might it be better for black to sacrifice those two stones? I don't see why it's important for black to take the corner (in gote and at the expense of a massive white wall) following the ponnuki on top.

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 Post subject: Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)
Post #54 Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:34 pm 
Tengen
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OGS: magicwand
youngjae wrote:
@Magicwand
Thank you Magicwand, I missed that :).

In that case. If White plays :w1: here first the sequence still works I think.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | X X O . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Do you have any other ideas as to how white could have played differently in the game? I would be interested to know how you would have played.

if you think about the sequence prior...it still works for black.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | X X O . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

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 Post subject: Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)
Post #55 Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:40 pm 
Dies in gote

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Rank: Korean 1d
@schilds
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b X X O X . c . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think this is the diagram you are referring to correct?
I can understand why you might not like the sequence for Black, but I do not agree that sacrificing those stones is a good idea. The whole point of sacrificing stones is that you get something in return. Maybe you plan to play 'a' or something like that? But if white gets to play 'b', not only is that a huge corner but the two :bc: stones are going to be in for a tough time and white can aim at 'c' to go after your shiny new ponnuki. I think this is too good for white.

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 Post subject: Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)
Post #56 Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:48 pm 
Dies in gote

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@Magicwand
Yep, touche.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | X X O . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Okay I hope I have not mucked up again but... maybe White can play :w1: even earlier. The only problem is now 'a' is Black's sente, so this sequence is starting to look much less appealing.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a X X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | X X O . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Still, as I asked before, what would you have done Magicwand? :)

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 Post subject: Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)
Post #57 Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:54 pm 
Dies with sente
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youngjae wrote:
@schilds
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b X X O X . c . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think this is the diagram you are referring to correct?
I can understand why you might not like the sequence for Black, but I do not agree that sacrificing those stones is a good idea. The whole point of sacrificing stones is that you get something in return. Maybe you plan to play 'a' or something like that? But if white gets to play 'b', not only is that a huge corner but the two :bc: stones are going to be in for a tough time and white can aim at 'c' to go after your shiny new ponnuki. I think this is too good for white.

Well, by sacrifice I didn't mean simply ignore the whole top left and tenuki. I'd still be looking for a play in the top left, though as you've said, if there's nothing on the outside then there's no reason to give white the corner.

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19/02/2011: this grumpy person takes a voluntary holiday from L19.

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 Post subject: Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)
Post #58 Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:58 pm 
Dies in gote

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@schilds
Okay, I think I follow. Judging by Magicwand's sequence though the situation is no where near as bad for Black as I originally painted it as being. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)
Post #59 Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:04 pm 
Tengen
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youngjae wrote:
@Magicwand
Yep, touche.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | X X O . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Okay I hope I have not mucked up again but... maybe White can play :w1: even earlier. The only problem is now 'a' is Black's sente, so this sequence is starting to look much less appealing.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a X X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | X X O . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Still, as I asked before, what would you have done Magicwand? :)


variation below is really bad for white because of cutting point 'a'
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | X X O a O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


how about probe at '1' before playing bad liberty reducing move.
i really didnt think about it seriously but it might bring better result than actual game.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X X . X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

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 Post subject: Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)
Post #60 Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:16 pm 
Dies in gote

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Rank: Korean 1d
@Magicwand
Yes I did mention in my post that I did not think this was good for exactly this reason.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | X X O a O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I quite like this idea though :). I know you said you have not really thought hard over it, but are you thinking if Black plays 'a' you will play 'b'? And if Black plays the hane at 'c' extend to 'd' perhaps?

Sorry about all the questions. Go is so rich with variation so all I want to do is learn! :).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . d 1 X X a X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . b . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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