Shape problems

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Bill Spight
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Shape problems

Post by Bill Spight »

A thread for shape problems. :)

Problem #1:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O O . . W . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X X . . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


How does Black respond to :wc: ?

Enjoy! :)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
Uberdude
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Re: Shape problems

Post by Uberdude »

m2.

First instinct (even an idiot...) was o3 but m2 also means white l3 no longer cuts the black groups which seems to be worth a lot more than the downsides of not playing o3 (1 point less, doesn't take a liberty from o4, white p4 becomes sente but it's not a very useful move).
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Re: Shape problems

Post by lightvector »

Like Uberdude, my first feeling was O3 and then M2 for connecting black's groups. But if M2, and later white's center group gets strong enough, I wonder if is there any lingering aji from something like this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O O . . O . 2 X . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X X . . X 4 X 1 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . B . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O O . . O 5 2 X . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X X . . X 6 X 1 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . B . 4 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Last edited by lightvector on Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shape problems

Post by Bonobo »

I’m a mere 12-14k, but neverthelss …
my first idea was to try an attack from behind resp. within with o7, perhaps o6
and thus could well be that I earn an ashaming defeat, as so often :-! And no, I didn’t play it out.
“The only difference between me and a madman is that I’m not mad.” — Salvador Dali ★ Play a slooooow correspondence game with me on OGS? :)
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Re: Shape problems

Post by illluck »

I can't make up my mind between M2 and N2 XD Both seem to work? I guess M2 leaves a bit less aji on the left side.
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Re: Shape problems

Post by Uberdude »

@lightvector:
Nice idea to look at that aji in the corner, but I think those possibilities are unlikely to arise as white's weak centre group might play forcing moves on the outside around q4/r5 in order to cut off black's r9 stones. And if white doesn't play around there black may well s7 or something pretty soon anyway.
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Re: Shape problems

Post by The Pilgrim »

Without too much thinking I would play N2 :mrgreen:
With thinking... :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:
I'll think about it tomorrow :D
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Re: Shape problems

Post by Ellyster »

I would say M4... and connect while attack, but I haven't think it harder
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Re: Shape problems

Post by cyclops »

q5 why?
Uberdude
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Re: Shape problems

Post by Uberdude »

@illluck:
I don't see any way in which n2 is better than m2, only worse. If there are only cons, and no pros, why is it a hard choice? Or do I miss a pro?
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Re: Shape problems

Post by illluck »

@Uber:

I didn't realize that aji until I almost finished posting, and didn't bother to change what I wrote before XD
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Re: Shape problems

Post by Toge »

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Post by EdLee »

Bonobo,
Bonobo wrote:I didn’t play it out.
If this shape is not immediately obvious to you,
then the first thing for you to study is to read what happens if W pushes at o3.
This is the start of the whole discussion. If later, you can find some nice counter-attack for B, great.
But first, what happens if B tenuki and W pushes at o3? Did you even think about this?
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Re: Shape problems

Post by Bonobo »

Thanks, Ed, this again shows that I have a loooong way to go.

My reflexes/instincts/intuition is far from being well-trained, so I’ll keep on following my self-prescription of “play & read & tsumego”, and guess I should stay out of such threads (i.e. not post) unless I’ve at least played around a bit w/ the constellation in question.
“The only difference between me and a madman is that I’m not mad.” — Salvador Dali ★ Play a slooooow correspondence game with me on OGS? :)
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Re: Shape problems

Post by Bill Spight »

The answer:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O O . . W . 2 X 5 . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X X . . X . X 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b1: protects against the push and cut and connects to the Black stones on the left.


The game:

The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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