I know I keep banging on about thickness, but strong players keep claiming thickness is OK -- yet every time I get thickness the result seems to be lousy at best. In this game I had black and got thickness in the top left, and what did I get out of it? One weak group after another after another. And it's not as if I went and foolishly played invasions when I already had one weak group on the board. (Well, I did that once.) No; most of my groups were already on the board and White made them weak, while my thickness did nothing whatsoever to stop this.
Tell me again why thickness is oh-so-wonderful?
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speedchase
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Re: Tell me again why thickness is oh-so-wonderful?
When white created the weak group on the top, you started by pushing him toward's your thickness, but eventually you stopped, and starting pushing him away from your thickness instead
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hyperpape
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Re: Tell me again why thickness is oh-so-wonderful?
I think I would prefer to play N15 instead of N16--White is the one who's invading your area, so make him struggle. At 
, L13 is very appealing. You can't quite seal white in, but it will be hard to get a bad result as far as I can see. At 72, J15 is also slow.
In general, I see several places where I feel like you're playing scared with groups that are actually thick.
, L13 is very appealing. You can't quite seal white in, but it will be hard to get a bad result as far as I can see. At 72, J15 is also slow. In general, I see several places where I feel like you're playing scared with groups that are actually thick.
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cdybeijing
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Move 73 is a middle game pass.-
illluck
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Re: Tell me again why thickness is oh-so-wonderful?
A quick comment about move 9, you absolutely should block the other side. R14 only makes the choice more clear since living inside the corner will damage the stone.
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Alguien
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Re: Tell me again why thickness is oh-so-wonderful?
Forget about thickness and concentrate on the "pushing towards" part.
Pick your game (or any other of yours) and go directly to the part where you're chasing a weak group. On each one of your moves think: "Am I offering a free move to the weak group"?
m16, n15 and n14 all do that (thus, you gave three consecutive free moves).
h16 doesn't (thus, you recovered sente).
j18 did again, but that's just a reading mistake, the idea was correct.
k14 was fine but since n14 gave a free move that w hadn't taken yet, he chooses to take it at that point.
Once you see that part and decide that you need to learn to attack with moves that don't give anything, I'd suggest watching aggressive high dan games. Go directly to the part where a weak group tries to escape and concentrate only on the attacker moves.
Once you start pushing groups around you'll find yourself wanting to have some wall, thickness or even one strong stone in the correct position.
The next step is to learn to create from thin air those anvils you need to hammer your opponent against.
Pick your game (or any other of yours) and go directly to the part where you're chasing a weak group. On each one of your moves think: "Am I offering a free move to the weak group"?
m16, n15 and n14 all do that (thus, you gave three consecutive free moves).
h16 doesn't (thus, you recovered sente).
j18 did again, but that's just a reading mistake, the idea was correct.
k14 was fine but since n14 gave a free move that w hadn't taken yet, he chooses to take it at that point.
Once you see that part and decide that you need to learn to attack with moves that don't give anything, I'd suggest watching aggressive high dan games. Go directly to the part where a weak group tries to escape and concentrate only on the attacker moves.
Once you start pushing groups around you'll find yourself wanting to have some wall, thickness or even one strong stone in the correct position.
The next step is to learn to create from thin air those anvils you need to hammer your opponent against.
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Li Kao
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Re: Tell me again why thickness is oh-so-wonderful?
69 is a pass. He already has that eye.
Play 69 at L15, and kill him.
Play 69 at L15, and kill him.
Sanity is for the weak.
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sequencer
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Re: Tell me again why thickness is oh-so-wonderful?
Hi,
just a few words.
Please look at the board after move 13. O17 is totally misplaced, and with one move W can separate your just played stone from your (overconcentrated) wall. Things already start to become difficult. I would have played o17 at r12, then a move at p13 instead of r9 is crucial. The gap at q14 is very bothering.
Move 33: that is not thickness anymore, it is already a moyo. k14 or q14 are more important than c14. You NEED the big territory to win. After the w invasion, something like l16, m16, l15, m15, l14, n13, p13, and you are almost connected while making territory and still chasing w.
just a few words.
Please look at the board after move 13. O17 is totally misplaced, and with one move W can separate your just played stone from your (overconcentrated) wall. Things already start to become difficult. I would have played o17 at r12, then a move at p13 instead of r9 is crucial. The gap at q14 is very bothering.
Move 33: that is not thickness anymore, it is already a moyo. k14 or q14 are more important than c14. You NEED the big territory to win. After the w invasion, something like l16, m16, l15, m15, l14, n13, p13, and you are almost connected while making territory and still chasing w.
Greetings, Helli
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p2501
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Re: Tell me again why thickness is oh-so-wonderful?
I tried to comment on it a little, although I'm only a 4k. Your biggest problem seems to be shying away from complications. Also you need to get a better understanding of how to use thickness (this is in regard of your comment before whites invasion of the top).
Somehow the variations are not recognized :/ You can copy and paste the txt and save it to an sgf, CGoban should read it (I used it to do this).
Somehow the variations are not recognized :/ You can copy and paste the txt and save it to an sgf, CGoban should read it (I used it to do this).
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ez4u
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Re: Tell me again why thickness is oh-so-wonderful?
Basically my take on this game is that Black constantly gives White more credit than is due. Let's see what I mean...
First the infamous choice at Black 9. Black thinks the White stone will somehow erase Black's potential instead of just being a tasty snack for Black on the way to dominating the right side. Meanwhile Black does not seem to understand that the Black stone on O17 just as effectively erases Black's potential on top since it becomes essentially a pass stone. Even if Black chooses the simple answer below, it is better than the game. Next is Black 13 at R9. Black seems to think that White will take the whole right side. However, the right side is visibly smaller than the left side (from R14 to Q4 there are 9 open lines, count them! However, from C16 to D3 there are 12 open lines, count them too!). Black 13 has to be at C5.
Next is Black 25 at D16. Black does not want to be cross-cut. However, when all the surrounding stones are Black, why does Black not want to be cross-cut? What does White do in the following position? Next consider Black 33. Black connects against a cut that does not work (the ladder runs straight to the Black stone on N3. In addition, playing C14 makes C13 a completely wasted stone - worse than O17. Shouldn't Black 33 be something like E9?
Finally let's consider Black's thinking in response to White's invasion at M17. Black considers that he has to strengthen the four stones to the right in light of the fact that there is now one White stone to their left. A more positive view IMHO is to think that White has just made an exceedingly dubious play far too deep in Black's thickness (yes, we finally got that word in
). The best choice for Black is to cap at M15 I think. Consider the sequence below. If Black plays the hane at "a" next, can both the corner and the invading group live? This looks like a fun game from Black's point of view. The point is that the Black stones in the upper right are not weak. They should be seen as strong.
Final, final thought. When White plays an attachment like L14 in the game, don't think or read, just hane at L13 and let the rest sort itself out. 
First the infamous choice at Black 9. Black thinks the White stone will somehow erase Black's potential instead of just being a tasty snack for Black on the way to dominating the right side. Meanwhile Black does not seem to understand that the Black stone on O17 just as effectively erases Black's potential on top since it becomes essentially a pass stone. Even if Black chooses the simple answer below, it is better than the game. Next is Black 13 at R9. Black seems to think that White will take the whole right side. However, the right side is visibly smaller than the left side (from R14 to Q4 there are 9 open lines, count them! However, from C16 to D3 there are 12 open lines, count them too!). Black 13 has to be at C5.
Next is Black 25 at D16. Black does not want to be cross-cut. However, when all the surrounding stones are Black, why does Black not want to be cross-cut? What does White do in the following position? Next consider Black 33. Black connects against a cut that does not work (the ladder runs straight to the Black stone on N3. In addition, playing C14 makes C13 a completely wasted stone - worse than O17. Shouldn't Black 33 be something like E9?
Finally let's consider Black's thinking in response to White's invasion at M17. Black considers that he has to strengthen the four stones to the right in light of the fact that there is now one White stone to their left. A more positive view IMHO is to think that White has just made an exceedingly dubious play far too deep in Black's thickness (yes, we finally got that word in
). The best choice for Black is to cap at M15 I think. Consider the sequence below. If Black plays the hane at "a" next, can both the corner and the invading group live? This looks like a fun game from Black's point of view. The point is that the Black stones in the upper right are not weak. They should be seen as strong.
Final, final thought. When White plays an attachment like L14 in the game, don't think or read, just hane at L13 and let the rest sort itself out. Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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Fedya
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Re: Tell me again why thickness is oh-so-wonderful?
Li Kao wrote:69 is a pass. He already has that eye.
Play 69 at L15, and kill him.
I went through the game multiple times and didn't see this. (I have a couple of other recent games where thickness didn't go so well, but didn't post them because after looking through the games a couple of times, I found what I think might have been losing moves in them. There's really no point in posting such a game, I think. At least, not if the intent is to ask for a review.)As for everybody else's comments, thanks, and it looks like I've got a lot to work on. Ez4u's comments in particular tend to explain why I seem to fall behind early in my games.
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shapenaji
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Re: Tell me again why thickness is oh-so-wonderful?
Everybody else has made most of the big points, but I wanted to discuss one other thing about "thickness"
Developing GOOD thickness is an art in itself. If your wall is even slightly weak, or if it's overconcentrated, then it will be much harder to use the thickness.
Consider the following two positions,
first, the one from your game:
The marked stone is redundant... this means white has basically forced you to play a useless stone.
If the position instead looked like this:
This would be a very good result.
The trade is not even here, because you went into a standard pattern and ignored the position of your surrounding stones. As a consequence, some of those surrounding stones have "lost their meaning". Which is basically saying that white got a free move somewhere, and the marked stone just ended up being a pass.
Thickness is great, but it should be efficient, otherwise your opponent is getting the better end of the bargain.
Developing GOOD thickness is an art in itself. If your wall is even slightly weak, or if it's overconcentrated, then it will be much harder to use the thickness.
Consider the following two positions,
first, the one from your game:
The marked stone is redundant... this means white has basically forced you to play a useless stone.
If the position instead looked like this:
This would be a very good result.
The trade is not even here, because you went into a standard pattern and ignored the position of your surrounding stones. As a consequence, some of those surrounding stones have "lost their meaning". Which is basically saying that white got a free move somewhere, and the marked stone just ended up being a pass.
Thickness is great, but it should be efficient, otherwise your opponent is getting the better end of the bargain.
Tactics yes, Tact no...
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Tell me again why thickness is oh-so-wonderful?
Having territory is like having a bank account. It is there even if you are passive. Having thickness is like having a lead pipe. You have to use it.Fedya wrote:I know I keep banging on about thickness, but strong players keep claiming thickness is OK -- yet every time I get thickness the result seems to be lousy at best...
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
at M15? 
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Phelan
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Re: Tell me again why thickness is oh-so-wonderful?
In Fedya's game? It could work, but has possible cuts at N16 and 15. I'm not sure, I'd need to read it.
However, N15 seems to do about the same, and is much less able to be cut (I wrote cuttable first, but it seems the word does not exist?).
Not sure if others have commented on this, since I read the thread a while ago.
However, N15 seems to do about the same, and is much less able to be cut (I wrote cuttable first, but it seems the word does not exist?).
Not sure if others have commented on this, since I read the thread a while ago.