It is currently Tue May 06, 2025 12:51 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Tell me again why thickness is oh-so-wonderful?
Post #1 Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:00 pm 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 603
Liked others: 43
Was liked: 139
Rank: 6-7k KGS
I know I keep banging on about thickness, but strong players keep claiming thickness is OK -- yet every time I get thickness the result seems to be lousy at best. In this game I had black and got thickness in the top left, and what did I get out of it? One weak group after another after another. And it's not as if I went and foolishly played invasions when I already had one weak group on the board. (Well, I did that once.) No; most of my groups were already on the board and White made them weak, while my thickness did nothing whatsoever to stop this.


Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Tell me again why thickness is oh-so-wonderful?
Post #2 Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:23 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 800
Liked others: 141
Was liked: 123
Rank: AGA 2kyu
Universal go server handle: speedchase
When white created the weak group on the top, you started by pushing him toward's your thickness, but eventually you stopped, and starting pushing him away from your thickness instead

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Tell me again why thickness is oh-so-wonderful?
Post #3 Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:05 pm 
Tengen

Posts: 4382
Location: Caldas da Rainha, Portugal
Liked others: 499
Was liked: 733
Rank: AGA 3k
GD Posts: 65
OGS: Hyperpape 4k
I think I would prefer to play N15 instead of N16--White is the one who's invading your area, so make him struggle. At :b53:, L13 is very appealing. You can't quite seal white in, but it will be hard to get a bad result as far as I can see. At 72, J15 is also slow.

In general, I see several places where I feel like you're playing scared with groups that are actually thick.

_________________
Occupy Babel!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Tell me again why thickness is oh-so-wonderful?
Post #4 Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:16 pm 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 581
Location: Shanghai, China
Liked others: 96
Was liked: 100
Rank: IGS 2 dan
:shock: Move 73 is a middle game pass.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Tell me again why thickness is oh-so-wonderful?
Post #5 Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:43 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1223
Liked others: 738
Was liked: 239
Rank: OGS 2d
KGS: illluck
Tygem: Trickprey
OGS: illluck
A quick comment about move 9, you absolutely should block the other side. R14 only makes the choice more clear since living inside the corner will damage the stone.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Tell me again why thickness is oh-so-wonderful?
Post #6 Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:43 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 628
Liked others: 45
Was liked: 98
Rank: KGS 3k
Universal go server handle: Alguien
Forget about thickness and concentrate on the "pushing towards" part.

Pick your game (or any other of yours) and go directly to the part where you're chasing a weak group. On each one of your moves think: "Am I offering a free move to the weak group"?

m16, n15 and n14 all do that (thus, you gave three consecutive free moves).

h16 doesn't (thus, you recovered sente).

j18 did again, but that's just a reading mistake, the idea was correct.

k14 was fine but since n14 gave a free move that w hadn't taken yet, he chooses to take it at that point.


Once you see that part and decide that you need to learn to attack with moves that don't give anything, I'd suggest watching aggressive high dan games. Go directly to the part where a weak group tries to escape and concentrate only on the attacker moves.

Once you start pushing groups around you'll find yourself wanting to have some wall, thickness or even one strong stone in the correct position.

The next step is to learn to create from thin air those anvils you need to hammer your opponent against.


This post by Alguien was liked by: daal
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Tell me again why thickness is oh-so-wonderful?
Post #7 Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:58 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 643
Location: Munich, Germany
Liked others: 115
Was liked: 102
Rank: KGS 3k
KGS: LiKao / Loki
69 is a pass. He already has that eye.

Play 69 at L15, and kill him.

_________________
Sanity is for the weak.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Tell me again why thickness is oh-so-wonderful?
Post #8 Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:48 am 
Beginner
User avatar

Posts: 5
Location: Wuppertal, Germany
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 2
Rank: KGS 3 kyu
KGS: sequencer
IGS: sequencer
OGS: sequencer
Hi,

just a few words.

Please look at the board after move 13. O17 is totally misplaced, and with one move W can separate your just played stone from your (overconcentrated) wall. Things already start to become difficult. I would have played o17 at r12, then a move at p13 instead of r9 is crucial. The gap at q14 is very bothering.

Move 33: that is not thickness anymore, it is already a moyo. k14 or q14 are more important than c14. You NEED the big territory to win. After the w invasion, something like l16, m16, l15, m15, l14, n13, p13, and you are almost connected while making territory and still chasing w.

_________________
Greetings, Helli

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Tell me again why thickness is oh-so-wonderful?
Post #9 Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:05 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 598
Location: Germany, Berlin
Liked others: 333
Was liked: 102
Rank: 4 kyu
Universal go server handle: p2501
I tried to comment on it a little, although I'm only a 4k. Your biggest problem seems to be shying away from complications. Also you need to get a better understanding of how to use thickness (this is in regard of your comment before whites invasion of the top).



Somehow the variations are not recognized :/ You can copy and paste the txt and save it to an sgf, CGoban should read it (I used it to do this).

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Tell me again why thickness is oh-so-wonderful?
Post #10 Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:13 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2414
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Liked others: 2350
Was liked: 1332
Rank: Jp 6 dan
KGS: ez4u
Basically my take on this game is that Black constantly gives White more credit than is due. Let's see what I mean...

First the infamous choice at Black 9. Black thinks the White stone will somehow erase Black's potential instead of just being a tasty snack for Black on the way to dominating the right side. Meanwhile Black does not seem to understand that the Black stone on O17 just as effectively erases Black's potential on top since it becomes essentially a pass stone. Even if Black chooses the simple answer below, it is better than the game.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc So bad for Black?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . 3 O 6 . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X 1 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Next is Black 13 at R9. Black seems to think that White will take the whole right side. However, the right side is visibly smaller than the left side (from R14 to Q4 there are 9 open lines, count them! However, from C16 to D3 there are 12 open lines, count them too!). Black 13 has to be at C5.

Next is Black 25 at D16. Black does not want to be cross-cut. However, when all the surrounding stones are Black, why does Black not want to be cross-cut? What does White do in the following position?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc When cross-cut, extend!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . X . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . X 2 . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . X . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Next consider Black 33. Black connects against a cut that does not work (the ladder runs straight to the Black stone on N3. In addition, playing C14 makes C13 a completely wasted stone - worse than O17. Shouldn't Black 33 be something like E9?

Finally let's consider Black's thinking in response to White's invasion at M17. Black considers that he has to strengthen the four stones to the right in light of the fact that there is now one White stone to their left. A more positive view IMHO is to think that White has just made an exceedingly dubious play far too deep in Black's thickness (yes, we finally got that word in :blackeye: ). The best choice for Black is to cap at M15 I think. Consider the sequence below. If Black plays the hane at "a" next, can both the corner and the invading group live? This looks like a fun game from Black's point of view. The point is that the Black stones in the upper right are not weak. They should be seen as strong.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Where is White going to go?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . 0 9 . a . . |
$$ | . O O O X X . . X . . O . X 8 X O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . 2 4 6 X O . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . 1 3 5 7 X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . X . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Final, final thought. When White plays an attachment like L14 in the game, don't think or read, just hane at L13 and let the rest sort itself out. :rambo:

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21


This post by ez4u was liked by 3 people: hyperpape, jts, shapenaji
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Tell me again why thickness is oh-so-wonderful?
Post #11 Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:19 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 603
Liked others: 43
Was liked: 139
Rank: 6-7k KGS
Li Kao wrote:
69 is a pass. He already has that eye.

Play 69 at L15, and kill him.


:o I went through the game multiple times and didn't see this. (I have a couple of other recent games where thickness didn't go so well, but didn't post them because after looking through the games a couple of times, I found what I think might have been losing moves in them. There's really no point in posting such a game, I think. At least, not if the intent is to ask for a review.)

As for everybody else's comments, thanks, and it looks like I've got a lot to work on. Ez4u's comments in particular tend to explain why I seem to fall behind early in my games. :mad:

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Tell me again why thickness is oh-so-wonderful?
Post #12 Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:06 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1103
Location: Netherlands
Liked others: 408
Was liked: 422
Rank: EGF 4d
GD Posts: 952
Everybody else has made most of the big points, but I wanted to discuss one other thing about "thickness"

Developing GOOD thickness is an art in itself. If your wall is even slightly weak, or if it's overconcentrated, then it will be much harder to use the thickness.

Consider the following two positions,

first, the one from your game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . O O O X X . . X .
$$ | . O X X . . . . . ,
$$ | . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . B . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .[/go]


The marked stone is redundant... this means white has basically forced you to play a useless stone.

If the position instead looked like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . O O O X X . . X .
$$ | . O X X . . . . . ,
$$ | . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .[/go]


This would be a very good result.

The trade is not even here, because you went into a standard pattern and ignored the position of your surrounding stones. As a consequence, some of those surrounding stones have "lost their meaning". Which is basically saying that white got a free move somewhere, and the marked stone just ended up being a pass.

Thickness is great, but it should be efficient, otherwise your opponent is getting the better end of the bargain.

_________________
Tactics yes, Tact no...


This post by shapenaji was liked by 2 people: Phelan, topazg
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Tell me again why thickness is oh-so-wonderful?
Post #13 Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:38 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1457
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
Fedya wrote:
I know I keep banging on about thickness, but strong players keep claiming thickness is OK -- yet every time I get thickness the result seems to be lousy at best...


Having territory is like having a bank account. It is there even if you are passive. Having thickness is like having a lead pipe. You have to use it.

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207


This post by Joaz Banbeck was liked by 7 people: Bonobo, illluck, mlund, Phelan, shapenaji, Splatted, topazg
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Tell me again why thickness is oh-so-wonderful?
Post #14 Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:40 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 20
Liked others: 2
Was liked: 1
Rank: Wbaduk IGS 9 kyu
IGS: plu3m
Wbaduk: plu3m
Online playing schedule: Wbaduk&IGS All Day !! (Maybe)
how about :b35: at M15? :scratch:

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Tell me again why thickness is oh-so-wonderful?
Post #15 Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:58 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1449
Liked others: 1562
Was liked: 140
Rank: KGS 6k
GD Posts: 892
In Fedya's game? It could work, but has possible cuts at N16 and 15. I'm not sure, I'd need to read it.

However, N15 seems to do about the same, and is much less able to be cut (I wrote cuttable first, but it seems the word does not exist?).

Not sure if others have commented on this, since I read the thread a while ago.

_________________
a1h1 [1d]: You just need to curse the gods and defend.
Good Go = Shape.
Associação Portuguesa de Go

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group