Lines of Play That are Especially Difficult to Read

SmoothOper · #1

I wonder if there are any lines of play that just have so many variations that they are impossible to read, the magic sword and large avalanche are a couple examples.

Also are there any examples of pros that were known for successful deployment of these in defense against strong reading?

Bill Spight · #2

Impossible to read:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Alguien · #3

Bill Spight wrote:

Impossible to read:

K10 only move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Alguien · #4

Bill Spight wrote:

Impossible to read:

Tenuki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ -- $$ | 1 $$ -- Tenuki[/go]

Alguien · #5

Bill Spight wrote:

Impossible to read:

Hane gives an inferior result.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |1 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Splatted · #6

Yes, passing is a very powerful tactic because it leaves more empty intersections, and thus more possible game paths, than any other move, but it's mainly used to complicate the game when facing someone with poor reading. This is why it's very common to see strong players passing several times during handicap games, and since each empty intersection adds possibilities to any game path, the effect is exponential.

It's a risky tactic though, so often you will see players opt for the much safer "local pass" (more commonly know as a tenuki). I think this bit might actually be true.

tomukaze · #7

Surely tengen is the only move here! :lol:

tundra · #8

Actually, if your opponent is Bill Spight, the only realistic move is obvious: resign :-?

tomukaze · #9

tundra wrote:

Actually, if your opponent is Bill Spight, the only realistic move is obvious: resign :-?

How about this move? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fqyfkFZEm0 (around 17 minutes and 35 seconds in.)

Phelan · **#10**

tomukaze wrote:

tundra wrote:

Actually, if your opponent is Bill Spight, the only realistic move is obvious: resign :-?

How about this move? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fqyfkFZEm0 (around 17 minutes and 35 seconds in.)

"The uploader has not made this video available in your country."

SmoothOper · **#11**

So that's it... Tengen? I suspect the 4-4 would be the traditional response. How predictable is that?

SmoothOper · **#12**

Alguien wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

Impossible to read:

K10 only move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 1 O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Would this sequence be considered playable? I am trying to think of a way where a 4-4 stone would be compelled to play a center game. It seems that an influence oriented game wouldn't be the best against a center oriented game since the corner is still up for grabs.

Uberdude · **#13**

@SmoothOper: that cut is ridiculous: white turns on the 2nd line in sente and then captures it in a net. And what's with the constant quadrophobia? 4-4 is a fine answer to tengen. Herman posted a link to a nice video by Battousai about playing against the 'tengen then invade corners' strategy on the "one point jump cannot be cut" thread.

SmoothOper · **#14**

Uberdude wrote:

@SmoothOper: that cut is ridiculous: white turns on the 2nd line in sente and then captures it in a net. And what's with the constant quadrophobia? 4-4 is a fine answer to tengen. Herman posted a link to a nice video by Battousai about playing against the 'tengen then invade corners' strategy on the "one point jump cannot be cut" thread.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 2 1 O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . T O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

black has a weakness at T

Uberdude · **#15**

O15 without atari is a working net.

illluck · **#16**

Reading: not just for Go...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 1 O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Shaddy · **#17**

And if Black resists..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X 4 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 1 O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 8 O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Well, I've posted this problem before. If you want to have a crack at it before reading the answer, go for it - White to escape or live, not just win capturing race.

The answer:

Uberdude · **#18**

@Shaddy: I was expecting someone to suggest that resistance, thanks for saving me having to show how to answer.

@illluck: Nitpicking, but I think black should live with solid connection so that white's descent to the first line on the right (rather than top) is sente as that looks likely to be less useful.

SmoothOper · **#19**

Uberdude wrote:

@Shaddy: I was expecting someone to suggest that resistance, thanks for saving me having to show how to answer.

@illluck: Nitpicking, but I think black should live with solid connection so that white's descent to the first line on the right (rather than top) is sente as that looks likely to be less useful.

OK I am convinced. However, I still don't see a sharp joseki that would work with tengen against the 4-4. Maybe it is the zen strategy for confusion having its effect, but it looks like white is able to read out exactly what they want to do.

Uberdude · **#20**

SmoothOper wrote:

OK I am convinced. However, I still don't see a sharp joseki that would work with tengen against the 4-4. Maybe it is the zen strategy for confusion having its effect, but it looks like white is able to read out exactly what they want to do.

Or maybe it is because there isn't one. Just because you have some strange hatred of 4-4 points doesn't mean that after playing tengen and they reply with 4-4 that there is some move to make the 4-4 collapse in heap.

Lines of Play That are Especially Difficult to Read

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