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Offline drmwc
 Post subject: Difficult tsume go.
Post #1 Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:54 am 
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This problem took me two weeks to solve when I was young. So I'll post the answer in about a fortnight's time. Black to play and kill
no ko
.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$------------
$$|..O...X....
$$|O...O.X....
$$|..O...X....
$$|......X....
$$|XXXXXXX....
$$|...........[/go]

This post by drmwc was liked by 2 people: gasana, speedchase
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Offline speedchase
 Post subject: Re: Difficult tsume go.
Post #2 Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:13 am 
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Cool problem.
my attempt:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$- - - - - - - - - - - -
$$| . . O . . . X . . . .
$$| O 1 . . O . X . . . .
$$| . . O . . . X . . . .
$$| . . . . . . X . . . .
$$| X X X X X X X . . . .
$$| . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

I don't see a way for white to live after :b1:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$- - - - - - - - - - - -
$$| . 2 O . . . X . . . .
$$| O 1 . . O . X . . . .
$$| 5 3 O . . . X . . . .
$$| a 4 b . . . X . . . .
$$| X X X X X X X . . . .
$$| . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

If white starts like this, Black can connect out.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$- - - - - - - - - - - -
$$| . 3 O 6 5 8 X . . . .
$$| O 1 4 . O . X . . . .
$$| . 2 O 9 7 . X . . . .
$$| . . . . . . X . . . .
$$| X X X X X X X . . . .
$$| . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


If white kills black's stones this way, then black can prevent the second eye.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$- - - - - - - - - - - -
$$| . 3 O 7 4 . X . . . .
$$| O 1 5 6 O . X . . . .
$$| . 2 O . . . X . . . .
$$| . . . . . . X . . . .
$$| X X X X X X X . . . .
$$| . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


gosh darnit, ko, back to the drawing board
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: Difficult tsume go.
Post #3 Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:18 am 
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i think this might be the only choice for first move..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$------------
$$|..O.1.X....
$$|O...O.X....
$$|..O...X....
$$|......X....
$$|XXXXXXX....
$$|...........[/go]


edit: but now i think i am wrong on my first move :)

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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: Difficult tsume go.
Post #4 Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:37 am 
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after some thought white die no ko..
did i miss anything?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$------------
$$|.2O.1.X....
$$|O4.5O.X....
$$|.3O...X....
$$|......X....
$$|XXXXXXX....
$$|...........[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$------------
$$|.3O21.X....
$$|O4.5O.X....
$$|..O...X....
$$|......X....
$$|XXXXXXX....
$$|...........[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$------------
$$|.4O.1.X....
$$|O..5O.X....
$$|..O...X....
$$|32....X....
$$|XXXXXXX....
$$|...........[/go]

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"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Offline Prodigious
 Post subject: Re: Difficult tsume go.
Post #5 Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:47 am 
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Magicwand wrote:
after some thought white die no ko..
did i miss anything?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$------------
$$|.2O.1.X....
$$|O4.5O.X....
$$|.3O...X....
$$|......X....
$$|XXXXXXX....
$$|...........[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$------------
$$|.3O21.X....
$$|O4.5O.X....
$$|..O...X....
$$|......X....
$$|XXXXXXX....
$$|...........[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$------------
$$|.4O.1.X....
$$|O..5O.X....
$$|..O...X....
$$|32....X....
$$|XXXXXXX....
$$|...........[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$------------
$$|..O.1.X....
$$|O...O.X....
$$|..O.2.X....
$$|......X....
$$|XXXXXXX....
$$|...........[/go]


This one is worth looking at

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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: Difficult tsume go.
Post #6 Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:15 am 
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DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
i spend 30 min and can not find answer to this problem.

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Offline logan
 Post subject: Re: Difficult tsume go.
Post #7 Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:05 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$----------------------
$$|. . O . 1 . X . . . .
$$|O . . . O . X . . . .
$$|. . O . 2 . X . . . .
$$|. . 3 . . . X . . . .
$$|X X X X X X X . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

This post by logan was liked by: cyclops
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Offline Alguien
 Post subject: Re: Difficult tsume go.
Post #8 Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:09 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$----------------------
$$|. . O . X . X . . . .
$$|O . . . O . X . . . .
$$|. 4 O . O . X . . . .
$$|. . X . . . X . . . .
$$|X X X X X X X . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


I don't get it. Seems alive to me. I'm much too weak for this problem, though.
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Offline Alguien
 Post subject: Re: Difficult tsume go.
Post #9 Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:19 am 
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I only see ko everywhere.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$- - - - - - - - - - - -
$$| . 1 . 3 . . X . . . .
$$| O 2 5 4 O . X . . . .
$$| . . O . . . X . . . .
$$| . . . . . . X . . . .
$$| X X X X X X X . . . .
$$| . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: Difficult tsume go.
Post #10 Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:20 am 
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Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Alguien wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$----------------------
$$|. . O . X . X . . . .
$$|O . . . O . X . . . .
$$|. 4 O . O . X . . . .
$$|. . X . . . X . . . .
$$|X X X X X X X . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


I don't get it. Seems alive to me. I'm much too weak for this problem, though.

dead
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$----------------------
$$|. 5 O . X . X . . . .
$$|O . . . O . X . . . .
$$|. 4 O . O . X . . . .
$$|. . X . . . X . . . .
$$|X X X X X X X . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

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"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: Difficult tsume go.
Post #11 Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:20 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$----------------------
$$|. 5 O . X . X . . . .
$$|O 6 . 7 O . X . . . .
$$|. 4 O . O . X . . . .
$$|. . X . . . X . . . .
$$|X X X X X X X . . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Ninja'd
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Offline drmwc
 Post subject: Re: Difficult tsume go.
Post #12 Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:32 pm 
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The correct solution has been posted - well done!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$------------
$$|..O.1.X....
$$|O...O.X....
$$|..O.2.X....
$$|..3...X....
$$|XXXXXXX....
$$|...........[/go]


3 is the ridiculous looking tesuji that's needed. W has no reply.
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Offline SoDesuNe
 Post subject: Re: Difficult tsume go.
Post #13 Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:53 am 
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Let us honour the book "Juseki Burou - Go Seigen Tsumego-shuu by Go Seigen", published by Seibundou Shinkousha, 1995 (ISBN 4-416-79510-6 C0076) for this problem and (in my case) GoGoD, where I took all the details ^^

It's a class A problem and also has a name: "THE SOUTHERN CROSS STAR - Breaking into a solid encampment".

Quite similiar to his Tesuji dictionaries Go Seigen's Tsumego-book has three categories of problems A, B and C. A are of course the hardest.

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Offline drmwc
 Post subject: Re: Difficult tsume go.
Post #14 Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:57 pm 
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That's interesting - I actually learned this problem from Shutai Zhang, who was British Go Champion for a number of years. He studied to be professional when he was young, and this was one of the problems he encountered in his training. (I think it was also in the British Go Journal in the early 1990s.)
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