Hi folks,
So I've never liked paying against any of the tsuke-nobi josekis (Attach and Extend) on the 4th line. Obviously this just means I don't understand how to play against it, so I'm wondering what others think. If I could learn some strategies against it, it would be great.
I just lost a game that opened like this:
I am black.
Question 1: Was approaching from the outer side the wrong idea?
(I know I could have enclosed or gone high/low Chinese, but I felt like approaching/doing something different.)
Question 2: I realize 5 is very territorial, so considering the bottom, was this bad?
I then followed up with this and jumped out, to prevent a big moyo.
Question 3: Is this being jealous? I didn't want his/her moyo to get out of control.
What would you have done? Would high Chinese have been better at this point?
Edit: My problem with this joseki is that unlike typical ones that leave space to exploit, I feel the "attack and extend" joseki are rock solid and don't really know how to exploit them.
Any feedback would be appreciated!
I dislike Tsuke-nobi Joseki... What about you?
-
EdLee
- Honinbo
- Posts: 8859
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
- GD Posts: 312
- Location: Santa Barbara, CA
- Has thanked: 349 times
- Been thanked: 2070 times
seemed too deep. How about:
- 
exchange if you were going to jump in afterwards?-
Alguien
- Lives in gote
- Posts: 628
- Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:50 pm
- Rank: KGS 3k
- GD Posts: 0
- Universal go server handle: Alguien
- Has thanked: 44 times
- Been thanked: 93 times
Re: I dislike Tsuke-nobi Joseki... What about you?
I have the exact same problem.
My solution? I'm using it at every possible chance until someone teaches me a lesson on how to stop it.
My solution? I'm using it at every possible chance until someone teaches me a lesson on how to stop it.
-
Uberdude
- Judan
- Posts: 6727
- Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:35 am
- Rank: UK 4 dan
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Uberdude 4d
- OGS: Uberdude 7d
- Location: Cambridge, UK
- Has thanked: 436 times
- Been thanked: 3718 times
Re: I dislike Tsuke-nobi Joseki... What about you?
Sumatakyo wrote:Question 1: Was approaching from the outer side the wrong idea?
(I know I could have enclosed or gone high/low Chinese, but I felt like approaching/doing something different.)
No.
Sumatakyo wrote:Question 2: I realize 5 is very territorial, so considering the bottom, was this bad?
No. Maybe h17 should be a bit further, but I can't say it's a bad move.
Sumatakyo wrote:I then followed up with this and jumped out, to prevent a big moyo.
Question 3: Is this being jealous? I didn't want his/her moyo to get out of control.
What would you have done? Would high Chinese have been better at this point?
YES YES YES YES YES YES.
This is your big problem. If you play on the right and white spends another move on the left to solidify that area it's still not 100% territory and you can play again on the right. If white gets the entire left side as territory, and you get only half of the right side as territory you will win the game as you have already established a strong presence on both the upper and lower sides so will get far more territory in these areas. You are right that tsuke-nobi joseki make solid positions for your opponent, but they also make solid positions for you.
-
Magicwand
- Tengen
- Posts: 4844
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:26 am
- Rank: Wbaduk 7D
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: magicwand
- Tygem: magicwand
- Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
- DGS: magicwand
- OGS: magicwand
- Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
- Has thanked: 62 times
- Been thanked: 504 times
Re: I dislike Tsuke-nobi Joseki... What about you?
above invasion is an overplay. simple cap will prove it.
even if you make two eye and live..you will lose.
if two professionals play that game..it would be game over after that invasion.
when you see professionals invade deep..it contains much much more than what you see.
they account for all aji, balance points and influence, tons of possible variations..etc.
i am sorry to say but your invasion basically had no plan and it is more like a suicide.
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
-
hyperpape
- Tengen
- Posts: 4382
- Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 3:24 pm
- Rank: AGA 3k
- GD Posts: 65
- OGS: Hyperpape 4k
- Location: Caldas da Rainha, Portugal
- Has thanked: 499 times
- Been thanked: 727 times
Re: I dislike Tsuke-nobi Joseki... What about you?
I have the same problem, that I feel like this joseki is so solid and leaves nothing to aim at.
-
Alguien
- Lives in gote
- Posts: 628
- Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:50 pm
- Rank: KGS 3k
- GD Posts: 0
- Universal go server handle: Alguien
- Has thanked: 44 times
- Been thanked: 93 times
Re: I dislike Tsuke-nobi Joseki... What about you?
Magicwand, in the position below, you'd rather play around a, b, c or other.
Magicwand wrote:
-
Magicwand
- Tengen
- Posts: 4844
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:26 am
- Rank: Wbaduk 7D
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: magicwand
- Tygem: magicwand
- Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
- DGS: magicwand
- OGS: magicwand
- Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
- Has thanked: 62 times
- Been thanked: 504 times
Re: I dislike Tsuke-nobi Joseki... What about you?
Alguien wrote:Magicwand, in the position below, you'd rather play around a, b, c or other.Magicwand wrote:
c: can be played but i dont like it because it is too slow and timid.
b: i like it better than c but not much different IMO.
a: is correct direction but i think it is too shallow...i would have gone one more space deeper.
d: my preference is as below. probing give you more option depends on his answer to the probe.
i am not saying that my probe is optimal way...but i think it would be very hard to say and prove that the move was bad move.
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
-
mitsun
- Lives in gote
- Posts: 553
- Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:10 pm
- Rank: AGA 5 dan
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 61 times
- Been thanked: 250 times
Re: I dislike Tsuke-nobi Joseki... What about you?
You have a choice between reduction and invasion. Reduction is appropriate when you calculate that you will have enough territory to win if your opponent takes the offer to consolidate his (reduced) moyo without a fight.
Playing at the boundary of mutual moyos is a similar option, which might be better in this particular position. You reduce your opponents moyo while expanding your own moyo. Again you need to count to see if this gives you enough territory to win.
Invasion is appropriate when reduction would give your opponent too much territory. Generally for a deep invasion to work, you must be able to exploit some weakness in your opponents position. Here for example the marked cut is a serious weakness, so an invasion which aims at that weakness might be possible.
When considering invasion options, you should first try to read out what happens if you cut directly and fight it out. If the direct cut looks too dangerous, then moves or sequences which threaten to make the cut work are worth considering.
Playing at the boundary of mutual moyos is a similar option, which might be better in this particular position. You reduce your opponents moyo while expanding your own moyo. Again you need to count to see if this gives you enough territory to win.
Invasion is appropriate when reduction would give your opponent too much territory. Generally for a deep invasion to work, you must be able to exploit some weakness in your opponents position. Here for example the marked cut is a serious weakness, so an invasion which aims at that weakness might be possible.
When considering invasion options, you should first try to read out what happens if you cut directly and fight it out. If the direct cut looks too dangerous, then moves or sequences which threaten to make the cut work are worth considering.
-
mitsun
- Lives in gote
- Posts: 553
- Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:10 pm
- Rank: AGA 5 dan
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 61 times
- Been thanked: 250 times
Re: I dislike Tsuke-nobi Joseki... What about you?
I will take the bait and call this a bad invasion by B. Since the top W position is already very strong, W can attack from a distance, making territory in the process. B has almost no forcing moves against the upper W position, so settling his invasion stone will be costly. I think this is an example of a deep invasion which has no weakness to aim at.
-
Alguien
- Lives in gote
- Posts: 628
- Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:50 pm
- Rank: KGS 3k
- GD Posts: 0
- Universal go server handle: Alguien
- Has thanked: 44 times
- Been thanked: 93 times
Re: I dislike Tsuke-nobi Joseki... What about you?
mitsun wrote:I will take the bait and call this a bad invasion by B. Since the top W position is already very strong, W can attack from a distance, making territory in the process. B has almost no forcing moves against the upper W position, so settling his invasion stone will be costly. I think this is an example of a deep invasion which has no weakness to aim at.
However, if one's considering not an invasion but a reduction, wouldn't your answer allow for a slightly deeper reduction disguised as a light escape?:
-
Magicwand
- Tengen
- Posts: 4844
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:26 am
- Rank: Wbaduk 7D
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: magicwand
- Tygem: magicwand
- Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
- DGS: magicwand
- OGS: magicwand
- Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
- Has thanked: 62 times
- Been thanked: 504 times
Re: I dislike Tsuke-nobi Joseki... What about you?
Alguien wrote:mitsun wrote:I will take the bait and call this a bad invasion by B. Since the top W position is already very strong, W can attack from a distance, making territory in the process. B has almost no forcing moves against the upper W position, so settling his invasion stone will be costly. I think this is an example of a deep invasion which has no weakness to aim at.
However, if one's considering not an invasion but a reduction, wouldn't your answer allow for a slightly deeper reduction disguised as a light escape?:
above is better than
edit
simple twari say 3 doesnt look good.
Last edited by Magicwand on Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
-
Magicwand
- Tengen
- Posts: 4844
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:26 am
- Rank: Wbaduk 7D
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: magicwand
- Tygem: magicwand
- Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
- DGS: magicwand
- OGS: magicwand
- Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
- Has thanked: 62 times
- Been thanked: 504 times
Re: I dislike Tsuke-nobi Joseki... What about you?
mitsun wrote:
I will take the bait and call this a bad invasion by B. Since the top W position is already very strong, W can attack from a distance, making territory in the process. B has almost no forcing moves against the upper W position, so settling his invasion stone will be costly. I think this is an example of a deep invasion which has no weakness to aim at.
It is no bait..and appreciate your input..
then how do you answer above? if 3 and 4 are next sequence..it would be bad for white. IMO
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
-
mitsun
- Lives in gote
- Posts: 553
- Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:10 pm
- Rank: AGA 5 dan
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 61 times
- Been thanked: 250 times
Re: I dislike Tsuke-nobi Joseki... What about you?
Magicwand wrote:
then how do you answer above? if 3 and 4 are next sequence..it would be bad for white. IMO
This result may be acceptable for both sides, so I withdraw my "bad move" claim. B can be happy that he has reduced deeply without becoming too heavy, but W secures a competitive amount of territory and still has a weak B group to attack in the future.
still looks to me more like a liability than an asset, requiring defense but not assisting in making territory.-
SmoothOper
- Lives in sente
- Posts: 946
- Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:38 am
- Rank: IGS 5kyu
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: KoDream
- IGS: SmoothOper
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 41 times
Re: I dislike Tsuke-nobi Joseki... What about you?
Sumatakyo wrote:Hi folks,
So I've never liked paying against any of the tsuke-nobi josekis (Attach and Extend) on the 4th line. Obviously this just means I don't understand how to play against it, so I'm wondering what others think. If I could learn some strategies against it, it would be great.
Is 9 too thick here, maybe a better order of play?
After white defends somewhere around 10 you can play c, then you have more aji to work with in an invasion.