I dislike Tsuke-nobi Joseki... What about you?

Sumatakyo · #1

Hi folks,

So I've never liked paying against any of the tsuke-nobi josekis (Attach and Extend) on the 4th line. Obviously this just means I don't understand how to play against it, so I'm wondering what others think. If I could learn some strategies against it, it would be great.

I just lost a game that opened like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 5 7 1 . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 O . 2 3 . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I am black.

Question 1: Was approaching from the outer side the wrong idea?
(I know I could have enclosed or gone high/low Chinese, but I felt like approaching/doing something different.)
Question 2: I realize 5 is very territorial, so considering the bottom, was this bad?

I then followed up with this and jumped out, to prevent a big moyo.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Question 3: Is this being jealous? I didn't want his/her moyo to get out of control.
What would you have done? Would high Chinese have been better at this point?

Edit: My problem with this joseki is that unlike typical ones that leave space to exploit, I feel the "attack and extend" joseki are rock solid and don't really know how to exploit them.

Any feedback would be appreciated!

EdLee · #2

Sumatakyo wrote:

Was approaching from the outer side the wrong idea?

I don't think so.

Sumatakyo wrote:

Is this being jealous? I didn't want his/her moyo to get out of control.

Your

seemed too deep. How about:

Just for reference:

Alguien · #3

I have the exact same problem.

My solution? I'm using it at every possible chance until someone teaches me a lesson on how to stop it.

Uberdude · #4

Sumatakyo wrote:

Question 1: Was approaching from the outer side the wrong idea?
(I know I could have enclosed or gone high/low Chinese, but I felt like approaching/doing something different.)

No.

Sumatakyo wrote:

Question 2: I realize 5 is very territorial, so considering the bottom, was this bad?

No. Maybe h17 should be a bit further, but I can't say it's a bad move.

Sumatakyo wrote:

I then followed up with this and jumped out, to prevent a big moyo.
Question 3: Is this being jealous? I didn't want his/her moyo to get out of control.
What would you have done? Would high Chinese have been better at this point?

YES YES YES YES YES YES.

This is your big problem. If you play on the right and white spends another move on the left to solidify that area it's still not 100% territory and you can play again on the right. If white gets the entire left side as territory, and you get only half of the right side as territory you will win the game as you have already established a strong presence on both the upper and lower sides so will get far more territory in these areas. You are right that tsuke-nobi joseki make solid positions for your opponent, but they also make solid positions for you.

Magicwand · #5

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . 2 . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

above invasion is an overplay. simple cap will prove it.
even if you make two eye and live..you will lose.
if two professionals play that game..it would be game over after that invasion.

when you see professionals invade deep..it contains much much more than what you see.
they account for all aji, balance points and influence, tons of possible variations..etc.
i am sorry to say but your invasion basically had no plan and it is more like a suicide.

hyperpape · #6

I have the same problem, that I feel like this joseki is so solid and leaves nothing to aim at.

Alguien · #7

Magicwand, in the position below, you'd rather play around a, b, c or other.

Magicwand wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . a . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Magicwand · #8

Alguien wrote:

Magicwand, in the position below, you'd rather play around a, b, c or other.

Magicwand wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . a . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

c: can be played but i dont like it because it is too slow and timid.
b: i like it better than c but not much different IMO.
a: is correct direction but i think it is too shallow...i would have gone one more space deeper.
d: my preference is as below. probing give you more option depends on his answer to the probe.
i am not saying that my probe is optimal way...but i think it would be very hard to say and prove that the move was bad move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . a . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

mitsun · #9

You have a choice between reduction and invasion. Reduction is appropriate when you calculate that you will have enough territory to win if your opponent takes the offer to consolidate his (reduced) moyo without a fight.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Reduction $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 2 . 1 . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Playing at the boundary of mutual moyos is a similar option, which might be better in this particular position. You reduce your opponents moyo while expanding your own moyo. Again you need to count to see if this gives you enough territory to win.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Boundary $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 7 , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Invasion is appropriate when reduction would give your opponent too much territory. Generally for a deep invasion to work, you must be able to exploit some weakness in your opponents position. Here for example the marked cut is a serious weakness, so an invasion which aims at that weakness might be possible.

When considering invasion options, you should first try to read out what happens if you cut directly and fight it out. If the direct cut looks too dangerous, then moves or sequences which threaten to make the cut work are worth considering.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Invasions directly or indirectly threatening cut $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B B B B . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . x O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

mitsun · **#10**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Bad move? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I will take the bait and call this a bad invasion by B. Since the top W position is already very strong, W can attack from a distance, making territory in the process. B has almost no forcing moves against the upper W position, so settling his invasion stone will be costly. I think this is an example of a deep invasion which has no weakness to aim at.

Alguien · **#11**

mitsun wrote:

I will take the bait and call this a bad invasion by B. Since the top W position is already very strong, W can attack from a distance, making territory in the process. B has almost no forcing moves against the upper W position, so settling his invasion stone will be costly. I think this is an example of a deep invasion which has no weakness to aim at.

However, if one's considering not an invasion but a reduction, wouldn't your answer allow for a slightly deeper reduction disguised as a light escape?:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Reduction post probe. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Magicwand · **#12**

Alguien wrote:

mitsun wrote:

I will take the bait and call this a bad invasion by B. Since the top W position is already very strong, W can attack from a distance, making territory in the process. B has almost no forcing moves against the upper W position, so settling his invasion stone will be costly. I think this is an example of a deep invasion which has no weakness to aim at.

However, if one's considering not an invasion but a reduction, wouldn't your answer allow for a slightly deeper reduction disguised as a light escape?:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Reduction post probe. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Reduction post probe. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

above is better than

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Reduction post probe. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

edit
simple twari say 3 doesnt look good.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Reduction post probe. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Magicwand · **#13**

mitsun wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Bad move? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I will take the bait and call this a bad invasion by B. Since the top W position is already very strong, W can attack from a distance, making territory in the process. B has almost no forcing moves against the upper W position, so settling his invasion stone will be costly. I think this is an example of a deep invasion which has no weakness to aim at.

It is no bait..and appreciate your input..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Reduction post probe. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

then how do you answer above? if 3 and 4 are next sequence..it would be bad for white. IMO

mitsun · **#14**

Magicwand wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Reduction post probe. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

then how do you answer above? if 3 and 4 are next sequence..it would be bad for white. IMO

This result may be acceptable for both sides, so I withdraw my "bad move" claim. B can be happy that he has reduced deeply without becoming too heavy, but W secures a competitive amount of territory and still has a weak B group to attack in the future. :b3:

still looks to me more like a liability than an asset, requiring defense but not assisting in making territory.

SmoothOper · **#15**

Sumatakyo wrote:

Hi folks,

So I've never liked paying against any of the tsuke-nobi josekis (Attach and Extend) on the 4th line. Obviously this just means I don't understand how to play against it, so I'm wondering what others think. If I could learn some strategies against it, it would be great.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 5 7 1 . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 O . 2 3 . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Is 9 too thick here, maybe a better order of play?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 5 7 1 . c . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 O . 2 3 . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After white defends somewhere around 10 you can play c, then you have more aji to work with in an invasion.

Mef · **#16**

hyperpape wrote:

I have the same problem, that I feel like this joseki is so solid and leaves nothing to aim at.

One thing to remember is that you got to choose your approach, and end in sente (in this thread's case twice!). If white is already willing to give you that much, it's hard to expect too squeeze too much more out of it in the future. That's why I'd subscribe to the camp that says to build more elsewhere and see if white can catch up. I don't think white will be eager to add yet another move on the left side. If white ends up jumping into black's right side, black can use an attack on those stones to build strength to jump into the left.

Sumatakyo · **#17**

Thank you all for the feedback. This gives me some ideas and confirms that my invasion was... too greedy :-?

EdLee wrote:

Also, why the :bc:

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exchange if you were going to jump in afterwards?
Without the :bc:

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exchange, maybe you could even jump into (a) ?[/hide]J

I don't like it when White pushes at g5 because it flatens me and it's sente, but it did complicate the invasion a bit...

Magicwand wrote:

This is better

I like this or something around G10/H10, but I'm wondering about the follow-up.

For example, I feel the following sequence would still be difficult for me to handle. The moyo looks even bigger now, but black needs to answer. Or is this bad for white? (My counting is horrible...)

mitsun wrote:

You have a choice between reduction and invasion. Reduction is appropriate when you calculate that you will have enough territory to win if your opponent takes the offer to consolidate his (reduced) moyo without a fight.

...

Playing at the boundary of mutual moyos is a similar option, which might be better in this particular position. You reduce your opponents moyo while expanding your own moyo. Again you need to count to see if this gives you enough territory to win.

As a mid/high level dan what is your opinion on this exchange. As I just mentioned my counting is horrible, but this appears very difficult for black because the right side appears easy to invade, whereas the white left side is solid territory (maybe 50-60 points?), and it's white turn.

EdLee · **#18**

Sumatakyo wrote:

For example, I feel the following sequence would still be difficult for me to handle.

Magicwand · **#19**

i think you misunderstand my point
when i said that

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Reduction post probe. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

is better.
i was comparing two and this other diag was inferior to this.
i think above move is really bad..but still better than your suggestion.
therefore your suggestion is not worth considerting. <---this was my point.

Sumatakyo · **#20**

My point was that I wasn't sure what to do after plunking a stone in the middle of the board.
Looking at Edlee's reply, I guess I need to simply jump out and leave the stones at the top because they are pretty much alive.

I have received many ideas, so the next step is to apply them in game :salute:

Off to a Goldfish exhibition in Osaka now, thanks for the help again peeps!

I dislike Tsuke-nobi Joseki... What about you?

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