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 Post subject: Re: magicwand versus drmwc
Post #221 Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:46 pm 
Tengen
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Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
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Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
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Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm141 B has captured 9; W has captured 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X O . , O X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X O O O X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X O O X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . O X X X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . . . X . O O . . . X . X . 6 . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X X O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X X . . X O O . O O . , . . . |
$$ | . 1 O . X . . X . X X O X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . O X X . X . . O . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O . O . O O . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . O O . O X O 5 |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X O X X O O O X . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . 3 . 4 . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

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 Post subject: Re: magicwand versus drmwc
Post #222 Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 3:30 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm141 B has captured 9; W has captured 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X O . , O X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X O O O X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X O O X . . . . . 7 . |
$$ | . O O O . . . O X X X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . . . X . O O . . . X . X . 6 . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X X O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X X . . X O O . O O . , . . . |
$$ | . 1 O . X . . X . X X O X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . O X X . X . . O . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O . O . O O . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . O O . O X O 5 |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X O X X O O O X . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . 3 . 4 . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Descending at first glance appears to be better yose.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . X . . . X . 0 . |
$$ | . . . O O O X O . , O X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X O O O X X . . . 6 X 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X O O X . . . . 7 5 . |
$$ | . O O O . . . O X X X . . . . 8 X 1 . |
$$ | . X . . . X . O O . . . X . X 9 O 2 . |
$$ | . . X . . . X X O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X X . . X O O . O O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . X . X X O X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X X . X . . O . X X . . 3 . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O . O . O O . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . O O . O X O X |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X O X X O O O X . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . X . O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


However, W' blosk at 2 appears to be sente. Suppose I ignore it, then W can start operations in the corner as shown. Next, B wants to cut off W 8 but this is an overplay:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . . . . 7 6 8 . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . X . . . X 1 O . |
$$ | . . . O O O X O . , O X . . . X O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . X O X O O O X X . . . O X O 4 |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X O O X . . . 3 X X . |
$$ | . O O O . . . O X X X . . . 5 O X X . |
$$ | . X . . . X . O O . . . X . X X O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . X X O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X X . . X O O . O O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . X . X X O X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X X . X . . O . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O . O . O O . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . O O . O X O X |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X O X X O O O X . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . X . O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


B needs 13 to avoid collapse. W 14 threatens to link underneath. So W lives up to 18.

I can avoid this in a number of ways:
    Play differently at the first move
    Don't play tenuki at 3 an tlet W kosumi at q8
    don't cut W at move 9


I've gone for the first option, since it's the cleanest. Next:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X O . , O X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X O O O X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X O O X . . . . . 1 . |
$$ | . O O O . . . O X X X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . . . X . O O . . . X . X . O 3 7 |
$$ | . . X . . . X X O . O O X . . O . 4 5 |
$$ | . . X , X X . . X O O . O O . , . . 6 |
$$ | . X O . X . . X . X X O X O . O . 8 . |
$$ | . . O . O X X . X . . O . X X . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O . O . O O . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . O O . O X O X |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X O X X O O O X . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | . 9 X . X . . . X . O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


W 2 is big, but I can play some sente yose and get the last big point at 9 with my lead intact.The move 1 as played effectively makes miai of 2 and 3 in diagram above.

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 Post subject: Re: magicwand versus drmwc
Post #223 Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:15 am 
Tengen
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Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Liked others: 62
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Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm141 B has captured 9; W has captured 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X O . , O X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X O O O X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X O O X . . . . . 7 . |
$$ | . O O O . . . O X X X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . . . X . O O . . . X . X . 6 8 . |
$$ | . . X . . . X X O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X X . . X O O . O O . , . . . |
$$ | . 1 O . X . . X . X X O X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . O X X . X . . O . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O . O . O O . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . O O . O X O 5 |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X O X X O O O X . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . 3 . 4 . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

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 Post subject: Re: magicwand versus drmwc
Post #224 Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 3:43 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm141 B has captured 9; W has captured 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X O . , O X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X O O O X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X O O X . . . . . 7 . |
$$ | . O O O . . . O X X X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . . . X . O O . . . X . X 9 6 8 . |
$$ | . . X . . . X X O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X X . . X O O . O O . , . . . |
$$ | . 1 O . X . . X . X X O X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . O X X . X . . O . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O . O . O O . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . O O . O X O 5 |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X O X X O O O X . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . 3 . 4 . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


another safety first move.

Black 1 below looks more appealing:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X O . , O X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X O O O X X . . . 5 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X O O X . . . 4 . X . |
$$ | . O O O . . . O X X X 8 . 6 . 2 X . . |
$$ | . X . . . X . O O . . . X 7 X 3 O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . X X O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X X . . X O O . O O . , . . . |
$$ | . x O . X . . X . X X O X O . O . 1 . |
$$ | . . O . O X X . X . . O . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O . O . O O . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . O O . O X O X |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X O X X O O O X . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . X . O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White will cut at 2. If I cut the stone off, 4 threaens some ataris and so 5 is a natural defence. however, 6 is now very strong since it threatens the cut at 8.

I can avoid this line, for example:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X O . , O X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X O O O X X . . . 7 X a . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X O O X . . 5 4 6 X . |
$$ | . O O O . . . O X X X . . . 9 2 X 8 . |
$$ | . X . . . X . O O . . . X . X 3 O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . X X O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X X . . X O O . O O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . X . X X O X O . O . 1 . |
$$ | . . O . O X X . X . . O . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O . O . O O . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . O O . O X O X |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X O X X O O O X . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . X . O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


5 is a nice move which protects the cut. Then I can squeeze white. However, W's incursion is quite big and after W connects, I will porbably need to connect at a. Hence I prefer to avoid the problems at the outset.

Another plan is to go for a trade:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X O . , O X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X O O O X X . . . 5 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X O O X . . . 4 . X . |
$$ | . O O O . . . O X X X 8 9 6 . 2 X . . |
$$ | . X . . . X . O O . . 0 X . X 3 O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . X X O . O O X . 7 O b . . |
$$ | . . X , X X . . X O O . O O . a . . . |
$$ | . x O . X . . X . X X O X O . O . 1 . |
$$ | . . O . O X X . X . . O . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O . O . O O . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . O O . O X O X |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X O X X O O O X . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . X . O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


B atari at a or b will follow this. It seems playable for B, but it has some risks and I may have misread.

The final idea is not to cut at 3 initially:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X O . , O X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X O O O X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X O O X . . 3 . . X . |
$$ | . O O O . . . O X X X . . 4 . 2 X . . |
$$ | . X . . . X . O O . . . X . X . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . X X O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X X . . X O O . O O . , . . . |
$$ | . x O . X . . X . X X O X O . O . 1 . |
$$ | . . O . O X X . X . . O . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O . O . O O . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . O O . O X O X |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X O X X O O O X . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . X . O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This may be similar to the squeeze line above, alhtough 4 may activate the cut so it may not work for B.

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 Post subject: Re: magicwand versus drmwc
Post #225 Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:37 am 
Tengen
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Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Liked others: 62
Was liked: 505
Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
R8

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The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

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 Post subject: Re: magicwand versus drmwc
Post #226 Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:03 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm149 B has captured 9; W has captured 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X O . , O X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X O O O X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X O O X . . . . . X . |
$$ | . O O O . . . O X X X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . . . X . O O . . . X . X 1 O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . X X O . O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X X . . X O O . O O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . X . X X O X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X X . X . . O . X X . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X X . X . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O . O . O O . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . O O . O X O X |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X O X X O O O X . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | . 3 X . X . . . X . O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Edited to add score estimate.

B:
18 points lower right.
12 points lower left.
19 point centre and left hand side.
45 points top.
94 points total

W:
15 points lower side group
15 point RHS
35 points upper left
6.5 kmoi
Less than 70 total

Despite my yose being slack, I appear to have a lead of around 25 points and W's available aji is fast disappearing.

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 Post subject: Re: magicwand versus drmwc
Post #227 Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:52 am 
Tengen
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OGS: magicwand
i think i will resign.
thank you for the game.
for obs.. sorry about bad game.
i think i was too timid on the beginning and never had chance.

drmwc: watching your game as ob gave me feeling that i can easily win against you. i guess watching and playing is two different thing. ^^

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 Post subject: Re: magicwand versus drmwc
Post #228 Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:18 am 
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Thank you for the game.

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 Post subject: Re: magicwand versus drmwc
Post #229 Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:35 am 
Judan
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Thanks to both of you for doing it. It has been very enjoyable to watch. :salute:

@MW: If you could play move 54 over again, would you still play it at F16?

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 Post subject: Re: magicwand versus drmwc
Post #230 Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:02 pm 
Tengen
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Thanks to both of you for doing it. It has been very enjoyable to watch. :salute:

@MW: If you could play move 54 over again, would you still play it at F16?


i dont think 54 was wrong... it was a probe.
i think 66 was too timid. (i already lost flow at this point)
i should have extended IMO.

Playing too timid and losing flow plus your opponent not making mistake will make the game look bad :)

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 Post subject: Re: magicwand versus drmwc
Post #231 Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:10 am 
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I think 74 was an overplay.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm74
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O X . Q . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . O . O O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X O O . O . X O O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . O X X . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X X . X . X . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O . O . O O 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . a . Q . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


W played at a. However, isn't the game more fun for white as shown? Next W can consider either of the marked moves. W has quite a lot of liberties on the top group, so B will be keen to avoid a semeai.


Having looked at the comments, this is an intersting juntion:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X O O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


MW's opininion is that my move is a mistake, and I should take the 3-3. However, I'm pretty happy with this move.
I want to cut in the centre, and it doens't seem to work without this move.
It strenghtens my central group (but with a slight hole).
It builds a loose moyo (with some holes)
It makes the 3-3 next quite severe.

So I thought it was a m ulti-purpose move, whereas if I go in at the 3-3 I become thin across the board.

The white respsone shown may have been interesting (although I would also have protected the corner.)

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