I played the following game on the wbaduk server yesterday evening (and used the method desribed in http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=8637 to extract the SGF...).

As often on wbaduk, I tend to get involved in messy fights, and there, even 11k players handle them quite solidly. In this game, I misread a Ko in an early fight; by patching the remaining groups I got significantly behind. Later, I succeeded to establish a big invasion into the black san ren sei area, however it did not fully compensate my losses before.

I added some questions and remarks and would appreciate any comments and suggestions for improvement!

Some direction of play thoughts. I'm just a few stones stronger than you, so just consider what I'm saying.


I'd prefer something like making the chinese formation at the left and invade sanrenseí if he takes one side. With this approach you strengthen his sanresei. But this can be a matter of style

Pincer! his potential at top isnt that great cause of your group and your 3-4 stone is strengtehed.

Your potential top is gone. Just live with your corner stones and attack his approaching stones. maybe c13.

Better strengthen your middle stones with something like N15 to prepare for an attack by the top group. Thjen you can still strengthen them with some shape move in the ceenter to attack the top group yourself later or take a big extension at bottom.

attack the top group. E12 for example.

A few ideas:


You should take these with a bit of scepticism, though, as my main strength is reading and I haven't done much of that, here.

Thank you both for your thorough analysis with many good ideas! I see as general trend that I sometimes switch into standby-mode and play unnecessary local moves while being more whole-board alert during other game situations.

@leichtloeslich: Regarding your comment on move 195, I still feel a bit uneasy with blocking on a3, since there are some more weaknesses around:


On the other hand, blocking on b3 costs 2 extra points in gote, while the best variation (If I did not missed another relevant one...?) after blocking on a3 costs 6 points but ends with sente for w, which is probably more important.

yeah, I actually saw the clamp and suspected there was trouble, but that was seconds (either before or) after posting and I was too lazy to change the sgf again. So I just posted my "didn't read lol"-disclaimer.

Here is another game from WBADUK which I lost by 1.5 pts (for some reason, the server showed only 0.5 pts but that's not important). There was some mutual struggeling of weak groups but no real major accident happened. I am sure I chosed the wrong direction a number of times in fuseki, also I suspect that more points could be gained in endgame. Thus, I would appreciate any feedback!

Some 4kyu Kgs comments:

I thought about R13 to counter the slowness of R 14 and if he tenukies i take the corner with q 17, which also threatens some invasion at his top, but there is a big fight goin on at R 12, so I dont know. Maybe your R12 alternative still is best. The problem with your move: He has to reinforce his top someday anyway and you force him to do was has to be done. and even as you do: Your high extension at afterwards is of no value as there is no attack goin top. Play this one low to secure the corner better.


better approach the other corner I'd say. If you want to play locally here try somethin like Q3 and the josekis following. the standard approach gets heavy easily now as you painfully discovered.

You protect Non territory. Extend to L or K 4 , L4 maybe because youre already undercut, so with K4 that his invasion at M4 or M3 may get out easier (so maybe in sente).

much better

I wouldnt call your J 4 group weak because you got D5 still goin

Some other comments later

and
I see two ways, either you play your leaning move and follow with something like L7 or M7 that makes use of the leaning, or you just jump once more, which also threatens his side sometime, but helps your group more. The leaning move alone does too less for your weak group
Also your tenuki should locally be on the third line. now it looks like as you'd gone downwards against a kick, but you sur would want to go upwards. Locally also a possible answer to be thought at is O14. First you jump out, second If he invades in the corner you get liberties in a possible semeai.

I think you can tenuki, as your second line stone stops the invasion's connection at R15, at least as i read. Still a bit risky. Big moves: M/L7 D5, leftside

The joseki answer is D6. Look at these josekis at Josekipedia.

L9: this is the decisive moment of the game, but actually I'm too weak to tell you right play here. What happens if he cuts at N9? You could sacrifice and march the way down the M line. what if he just extends or counter hanes? Your sacrifice still would work, if you don't defend the cut. I can't say if the sacrifice here is good. You sure can keep on attacking his group and he gets about 20 points. Were you willing to sacrifice ?

Can you really tenuki ? I can't see a good attacking move for him, I'd try to run more as black.

This one on N6

Do something for your dragon. Everyday. I would have played F10 or M11.

108: You're sure youre connected with your group? I maybe would have tenukid.


I'm curious for all the other reviews.

Thank you for all your interesting comments! I've put your suggestions together with some more variations from me into the SGF:



I included also your suggestion after the possible cut at N9 (move 55). It does not look bad at all, but maybe a bit over-optimistic

On wbaduk, my rank currently seems to level off at around 12k. As a general trend I recognize that I start too many groups and am too optimistic about getting them all settled. I won the attached game only luckily, as there were several situations where one of my groups was at the rim of dying. A stronger opponent should have killed at least my lower right corner if not even more. At the end, black had only one big connected group (with nice labyrinth-like shape... ), while I had to fiddle around with 5 groups - whereof one got actually lost.



Any comments on the game are highly appreciated.

I would like to keep this thread as my (non-regularly updated) study journal: Since there should be no study journal without a goal, I would like to set my personal next goal to becoming sdk on wbaduk (which seems more or less equivalent to breaking the 5k barrier on KGS if I understood the rank comparison tables correctly...).

Up to now, I was practising mainly tsumego and playing games, while the outcome of Fuseki seems somewhat of a mystery for me. Thus, I obtained "Opening theory made easy" from Otake and "Making good shape" from Zeijst/Bozulich and am now trying to get something out of it. From the two attached games (a loss and a win; both on wbaduk today) you can see that I'm still struggeling with overall strategy and direction of play. Any comments or hints for improvement are greatly appreciated.





Edit: Removed the names of the opponents

Yesterday I played a game, where I got somehow tricked very quickly (it was a bit late in the evening, though). After I've played an "ideal" extension, my opponent entered it with e "knee-hit" and created complications (I was helping with some overaggresive moves...).



Any comments are highly appreciated

Thank you EdLee for looking at this strange game and for your additional variations. However I am not yet sure, how I would play the next time if that situation repeats ...

My favorite variation would be to push on the third line in move 16 (and let black proceed on the 2nd line, if he wants...). This seems to have the advantage that white keeps fully connected while obtaining a big influence zone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wm16 This is my favorite line
$$|...................|
$$|................X..|
$$|...................|
$$|...,.....OO..O.X...|
$$|...O..31OXX..OX....|
$$|.......2X..........|
$$|...................|
$$---------------------[/go]

Are there any disadvantages here?

In your variations, you seem to suggest to abandon O3/O4 and build a strong wall towards upper left instead. In total, black would get up to 30 secure points in lower right corner. On the other hand, white would get a quite large "potential", which is still invadeable though. I am not sure, how I would judge that. If e. g. the same sequence would be repeated at upper right, black would have about 70 points at right side which is already almost enough to win . On the other hand, by abandoning O3/O4 I would get more freedom to take big plays elsewhere...

Maybe my thinking is still too "kyuish" here (= too much focused on "solid cash"?).

What variation would you prefer - or is it a matter of style?

Hi schawipp, just the reference variation at .Yes. If B lets W get that result, W is super happy.

Today, I played this game on KGS. In the opening, I felt unsure about the correct direction. Later we had some minor fights in middle game, however my opponent resolved these situations by small sacrifices and finally kept a close lead of 1.5 Pts. I think the game was decided in endgame, where my opponent set more priority in playing sente moves, while I stumbled across with some stupid inaccurate moves. Anyway, thank you in advance for comments and criticism!

My thoughts.

I can understand your desire to defend this group but consider. The only important piece of this group is N4. The other two stones can be sacrificed very easily. If you want to settle the group perhaps J5 to keep white low. But (I think) the left side is bigger. This group is in no danger. In my eyes it can easily jump up and to the side in "sente" so finding shape wouldn't be too hard.

I would have played this side too.

I would play D17 on the face that the move played in game makes C13 look very inefficient. Plus it gives a very easy result to white.

Seems like a pointless move. The corner is alive and strong because of capturing the two stones, C13 won't be making much points in combination with this move.

Imagine if L3 were at J5 instead. It's possible to imagine that you are beginning to close white out of the center.

Good plan so far. Not losing sight of what's important.

As you can see this was too aggressive. Perhaps N12 instead. If white runs out with M14, black can connect at O9 and close white out of the center. And white's group still isn't safe yet. Or maybe read and see if N14 works.

Consider what this move does. It keeps two white groups separate. Which is great if you can find a good way to attack C11. Otherwise this move is the same as a pass in which case the other move would have been better.

I think is big. Otherwise, W can peep M3:
If B connects, then the entire B group is heavy.
If B tenukis, then W cuts off o3, and B is left with 3 stupid stones
in the center, while W gets both the right side and the bottom.

After connect, W is supposed to only get one of the two (right or bottom),
but not both — that's too good for W.
I wonder if should drop to o2 directly ?
Maybe at M3 directly, the tiger's mouth.

Yes, if W ataris at N3, then B can counter atari at M3,
and give up the lone o3 stone — B keeps the outside and M3.
But if W peeps M3 and B tenukis, that's a big loss for B.

Instead of hane, maybe W can peep M3 —
B is left with a heavy group.

31 seems sort of ok to me, like Ed said peep rather than cut to attack everything could be white's continuation if tenuki. I would also point out that if white didn't want black to play there he could have m3 peeped instead of p2. After black connect white could m2 and lose a bit in the corner when black pushes or jumps, or come back to p2 and black could play m2 to stabilise his group but it's even smaller than m3 (and less follow up at g4). If black doesn't like white blocking at p2 after peep-connect then black could push there immediately after peep and white can choose between cutting and giving black the corner or just blocking. Black feels a bit strange to me in the game result, but you got the lower left corner and still have your Chinese side so maybe it's ok. I wonder about jump out and cap in response to white's 2 space pincer (jump isn't normally good with that pincer but I'm trying to make good use of n5 thickness).

Thank you all for the excellent feedback and discussion! Sometimes someone has to say obvious things before thinking blockades go away

The decision for move was quite difficult. As EdLee pointed out, I feared that the whole group goes to waste and white gets a really huge right and bottom area. On the other hand, I felt urged to play something bigger elsewhere. Probably the J5 alternative mentioned by Unusedname is the best alternative?



Yeah, I played that move merely by a kind of "shape habit" without really thinking about the consequences. The same holds for move . Maybe I have to try to play more consciously.



Good point. However even the right side alone became quite big (~35 pts in the end) with the W stones Q10 and P14 already in place. Therefore I think there might be already a problem in the opening before. Move seems like a standard reply in Chinese opening, however a counter approach on R6 might be an alternative. Also on O3 might be too helpful for white to further strengthen his right side. I could have approached the lower left stone instead and wait for a good opportunity to play e. g. Q7(?). I am still very unsure about direction of play (or whatever... ) in the opening and would appreciate any comment on that.

BTW I tried to count the score in between only to find out that it was very close. This raised my stress level and then game-deciding moves like 157 happened...