Big Brother Malkovich #2

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Chew Terr
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Chew Terr »

dfan wrote:
schultz wrote:I agree. It seems really early for this type of correction (of course I didn't post this until someone much higher in rank than me said something...what a coward). ;)

And wasn't Joaz just talking a while ago about getting W to use up all (or a bunch) of their change "tokens" so they could be at an advantage later in a big fight?

Based on Joaz's correction frequency in the other Big Brother game, I had a feeling that he would not get to make use of that strategy :)

I agree that using up a correction on this seems pretty weird, but it's not clear to me just how costly corrections are in this game (as opposed to the 2 points they cost in the other game).

It's also worth keeping in mind that this could head into complicated joseki territory that could require a lot more corrections in the future...


I don't know, while Joaz has used a fair number of corrections in my BB game, I think Topazg used even more. Also, from my understanding of Topazg both as a player and from his comments here, I imagine he's going to try to use his corrections for big and early 'direction of play'-type strategic issues. I think by the time 100 moves have passed, Topazg will have used more corrections than Joaz, though only by about 5 or so. We'll see if I'm wrong!
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Phelan
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Phelan »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 6 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=9, W=10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . O , X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm tempted just to take the other corner, but am not sure if that won't leave us too much at a disadvantage in this corner. I really wasn't expecting Joaz's correction here.
I'm also not sure if my move is joseki, since I don't usually check senseis or joseki dictionaries during games.

If I was to take the open corner, I would play a 5-4 or 5-3 to make an approach from joaz's stone not worth as much.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Open corner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm almost sure my move would get corrected, though, either way I played. :-?

Edit: fixing something in my thoughts.
Last edited by Phelan on Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Aphelion »

I've never seen that move before in my life. I obviously need to reinforce my corner some how without strengthening his connection. I'm debating between 'a' and 'b'. 'a' seems solid but I'm wondering if it violates the rule of staying ahead. If topazg approves this I need sometime to think...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 6 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=9, W=10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . O , X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . b . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Aphelion »

If Topazg does approve that move, this is my response. I will add my thoughts if this is indeed played out.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 7 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=9, W=10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . O , X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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topazg
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by topazg »

Approved.

I'm torn. I want to get sente, really really badly. If we play this jump, can we ignore Black's followup? Probably, we're quite light, but how bad are the followups.. If we already had a stone in the top right I'd definitely play the one point jump, and look to pincer the top edge stone and attack as follows:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm6 Move 6 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=9, W=10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 6 . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . 9 , . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . 2 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 4 . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But we don't. So, what does Black do if we pass (read, take the top left)? Keima?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm6 Move 6 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=9, W=10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 4 . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This looks kind of bad. However, with the two point in play this feels like it sort of works:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm6 Move 6 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=9, W=10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 6 . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 4 . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm not saying this is going to happen. But it feels possible, and the one point jump would be heavier to tenuki from without playing out the full joseki. I'll think about which top left corner point I want.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Aphelion wrote:If Topazg does approve that move, this is my response. I will add my thoughts if this is indeed played out.


@Aphelion: so it is still your move?
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Phelan »

I think you have to approve his move now. But he should post his thoughts first, maybe?
I don't know if I'll be able to make a move before tuesday/wednesday afternoon because of an exam.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Phelan wrote:I think you have to approve his move now. But he should post his thoughts first, maybe?...


Yes, that was my point. I'd like to see where he is heading with this move, rather than just the move itself.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Aphelion »

Sorry about the down time, I'm on a roadtrip where Internet access has been flaky. This might be the last time I make a move before Wednesday. I'm still playing that move, these are some ideas I have:

Since we didn't tenuki to the open corner previously, its certainly not consistent to tenuki now. If White gets another move at the corner the marked exchange will start looking pretty bad for us. Furthermore, the whole idea was to put pressure on the white approach stone with our pincer, if we tenuki not only will White settle magnificently, it is us who will have to leave small in the corner:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Yuck -c Marked exchange looks horrible
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 3 . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . B . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . 5 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As to the actual white move, it feels...odd. However, I don't think it is a bad move as it gets out while treating the original stone lightly. White is clearly trying to set up a tenuki to the open corner now. The key weakness is its weak connection. My key goal is to reinforce my corner (which is under pressure) while not letting White fix his weakness easily. This rules the contact move at 'a' out, and I'm certainly not going to try to peep that shape prematurely. 'b' is also a vulgar move that not only does nothing against his stones, but even were he to respond the 'a' - 'b' exchange would just helping White strengthen himself. So the only moves I really considered are 'c' and 'd'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Moves to consider
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a b . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . d . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


'd' is the first instinct, as prevents myself getting sealed in while keeping abreast of white. However, the problem with this move is that it feels thin to me. If I expect White to tenuki this shape, then this thinness will mute the severeness of any follow up I might have because White can make forcing moves against my stones. For example, the simple attempt to cut will expose my weakness:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Can't cut with 2 pt extension
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]





The one point jump is far more solid and makes the cut possible if White tenukis:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc More solid position letting me cut
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Although I am still "behind" White. White cannot forcibly seal me in because of the weakness in his position. I don't think me trying to cut is a good move right away, but it is something I can aim for if I manage to establish a stronger position on the top side. I am fairly certain that White will tenuki to the empty corner after my move, and depending on the way he does it I might be able to establish a more solid position on top. My goal right now is not to obsess over his 2 stones, but try to get stones on both the right and top in the natural flow of the fuseki. When the time presents itself, I may either choose to cut or attack those two stones on a far larger scale.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Aphelion »

I'm back....is the game dead?
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Aphelion wrote:I'm back....is the game dead?


No, we're still waiting for you to complete your last move.

EDIT: Ahhhh, now I understand. I originally read your comment of...

Aphelion wrote:... I'm still playing that move...


...to mean that you were still in the process of making your move. Whereas you meant that you had not changed in your opinion of the move.

So, I approve. Sorry about the confusion. Phelan, it is your turn now.
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Phelan
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Phelan »

As promised to Aphelion, here is my move.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 8 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=9, W=10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , W . . . . , . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It seems that the corner won't be open in the next move, so maybe it's better to play there first. I still want to play the 5-4, for some pressure on Joaz's stone.
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topazg
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by topazg »

Approved

And happily. I like that. Interesting choice, and the corner I wanted to tenuki to. Good on ya Phelan!
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Chew Terr
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Chew Terr »

I've been seeing 5-4 corners in books and games lately. Perhaps it's time for me to start learning how to use/refute them... =D Eager to see how it's used/fought in this game.
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Aphelion
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Aphelion »

I'm going to think on this move a bit. Will try to make a decision in the next 12 hours or so.

Damnit, that Phelan just keeps throwing me these curve balls. I'm vaccillating between about 5-6 different moves right now, and none of them please me.


So far white has been like a spoilt brat, prancing around the board and tenuking as he pleases. If possible, I want to make him squirm a little with this next move
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