Big Brother Malkovich #2

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:35 am

Phelan · Post by **Phelan** » Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:12 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Move 6 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=9, W=10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm tempted just to take the other corner, but am not sure if that won't leave us too much at a disadvantage in this corner. I really wasn't expecting Joaz's correction here.
I'm also not sure if my move is joseki, since I don't usually check senseis or joseki dictionaries during games.

If I was to take the open corner, I would play a 5-4 or 5-3 to make an approach from joaz's stone not worth as much.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Open corner $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , W . . . . , . X . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm almost sure my move would get corrected, though, either way I played.

Edit: fixing something in my thoughts.

Aphelion · Post by **Aphelion** » Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:29 am

I've never seen that move before in my life. I obviously need to reinforce my corner some how without strengthening his connection. I'm debating between 'a' and 'b'. 'a' seems solid but I'm wondering if it violates the rule of staying ahead. If topazg approves this I need sometime to think...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Move 6 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=9, W=10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Aphelion · Post by **Aphelion** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 5:24 am

If Topazg does approve that move, this is my response. I will add my thoughts if this is indeed played out.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Move 7 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=9, W=10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:55 pm

Approved.

I'm torn. I want to get sente, really really badly. If we play this jump, can we ignore Black's followup? Probably, we're quite light, but how bad are the followups.. If we already had a stone in the top right I'd definitely play the one point jump, and look to pincer the top edge stone and attack as follows:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 Move 6 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=9, W=10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 6 . | $$ | . . . W . . . . 9 , . X . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But we don't. So, what does Black do if we pass (read, take the top left)? Keima?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 Move 6 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=9, W=10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 4 . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . X . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This looks kind of bad. However, with the two point in play this feels like it sort of works:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 Move 6 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=9, W=10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 6 . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . X . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 4 . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm not saying this is going to happen. But it feels possible, and the one point jump would be heavier to tenuki from without playing out the full joseki. I'll think about which top left corner point I want.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:59 am

Aphelion wrote:If Topazg does approve that move, this is my response. I will add my thoughts if this is indeed played out.

@Aphelion: so it is still your move?

Phelan · Post by **Phelan** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:30 am

I think you have to approve his move now. But he should post his thoughts first, maybe?
I don't know if I'll be able to make a move before tuesday/wednesday afternoon because of an exam.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:47 am

Phelan wrote:I think you have to approve his move now. But he should post his thoughts first, maybe?...

Yes, that was my point. I'd like to see where he is heading with this move, rather than just the move itself.

Aphelion · Post by **Aphelion** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:03 pm

Sorry about the down time, I'm on a roadtrip where Internet access has been flaky. This might be the last time I make a move before Wednesday. I'm still playing that move, these are some ideas I have:

Since we didn't tenuki to the open corner previously, its certainly not consistent to tenuki now. If White gets another move at the corner the marked exchange will start looking pretty bad for us. Furthermore, the whole idea was to put pressure on the white approach stone with our pincer, if we tenuki not only will White settle magnificently, it is us who will have to leave small in the corner:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Yuck -c Marked exchange looks horrible $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 3 . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . B . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As to the actual white move, it feels...odd. However, I don't think it is a bad move as it gets out while treating the original stone lightly. White is clearly trying to set up a tenuki to the open corner now. The key weakness is its weak connection. My key goal is to reinforce my corner (which is under pressure) while not letting White fix his weakness easily. This rules the contact move at 'a' out, and I'm certainly not going to try to peep that shape prematurely. 'b' is also a vulgar move that not only does nothing against his stones, but even were he to respond the 'a' - 'b' exchange would just helping White strengthen himself. So the only moves I really considered are 'c' and 'd'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Moves to consider $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a b . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . d . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

'd' is the first instinct, as prevents myself getting sealed in while keeping abreast of white. However, the problem with this move is that it feels thin to me. If I expect White to tenuki this shape, then this thinness will mute the severeness of any follow up I might have because White can make forcing moves against my stones. For example, the simple attempt to cut will expose my weakness:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Can't cut with 2 pt extension $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . X . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The one point jump is far more solid and makes the cut possible if White tenukis:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc More solid position letting me cut $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . X . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Although I am still "behind" White. White cannot forcibly seal me in because of the weakness in his position. I don't think me trying to cut is a good move right away, but it is something I can aim for if I manage to establish a stronger position on the top side. I am fairly certain that White will tenuki to the empty corner after my move, and depending on the way he does it I might be able to establish a more solid position on top. My goal right now is not to obsess over his 2 stones, but try to get stones on both the right and top in the natural flow of the fuseki. When the time presents itself, I may either choose to cut or attack those two stones on a far larger scale.

Aphelion · Post by **Aphelion** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:37 pm

I'm back....is the game dead?

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:43 pm

Aphelion wrote:I'm back....is the game dead?

No, we're still waiting for you to complete your last move.

EDIT: Ahhhh, now I understand. I originally read your comment of...

Aphelion wrote:... I'm still playing that move...

...to mean that you were still in the process of making your move. Whereas you meant that you had not changed in your opinion of the move.

So, I approve. Sorry about the confusion. Phelan, it is your turn now.

Phelan · Post by **Phelan** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:24 pm

As promised to Aphelion, here is my move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Move 8 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=9, W=10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , W . . . . , . X . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:04 pm

Approved

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:09 pm

I've been seeing 5-4 corners in books and games lately. Perhaps it's time for me to start learning how to use/refute them... =D Eager to see how it's used/fought in this game.

Aphelion · Post by **Aphelion** » Fri Jun 18, 2010 12:56 am

I'm going to think on this move a bit. Will try to make a decision in the next 12 hours or so.

Life In 19x19

Big Brother Malkovich #2

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