My very first game

[Rowen]

Okay, I caved and played a game on the KGS server. Thought I was doing well but tons of over sights (among other newbie things plagued me). So here is the game, any advice on what to look for and just point out bad moves in general (I'm sure there are many). Thanks in advance for any assistance.

[EdLee]

Hi Rowen, congrats on your first KGS game.

One good thing about this game is you can learn about a particular shape:

. and -- Broken shape for B.
. , , , -- Broken shape for B.
. -- Broken shape for B.
. , , , , -- Broken shape for B.
. 117 -- Broken shape for B.

See also: Toothpaste.

[moyoaji]

Is this your first 19x19 game ever? Or just the first on the KGS?

EdLee made some great points about shape. I have some comments about opening moves and keeping your stones connected. I gave my final thoughts on the last move.



Don't feel bad about not noticing when your stones are in atari. This mistake actually happens more often than you might think at all levels of the game. I make it from time to time and even professionals have done it. Nakano Yasuhiro 9 dan once made this mistake in a tournament game - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt1FvPxmmfE

I will also point out that you don't seem to use much of your time. Having 25 minutes of time, you used only 7 to play over 60 moves. Don't be afraid to think about moves. Just because your opponent is playing fast doesn't mean you have to.

The dual 6-4 opening is interesting. I'm wondering - why did you choose this opening? The Chinese professional Gan Siyang plays dual 6-4 almost exclusively and has even beaten 9 dan professionals like Cho Chikun using this strategy so it is not wrong, I'm just curious.

[Rowen]

Wow, thanks guys when I have more time today I'm going to go over everything in detail you have said. Thank you so much for taking the time to help me out.

@EdLee - Thanks for the congrats. (Ill be going over what you were saying, I'm assuming broken shape means it allowed my opponent an advantage?)


@moyoaji - Yes, this was my first 19x19 game ever. I have been playing some 9x9 games on my android tablet but those you could count on one hand. As for the Dual 6-4, I'm confused...my lingo for Go isn't there yet and I'm not sure what you mean by 6-4 (cause I put the stone on Q-4). Sorry about that.....as for why I put my stone there....I think I saw it in Hikaru no go, lol. It seemed to give me a presence in that corner and being offset -to me- gave me more options and perhaps made it not seem like a direct threat.

I'm not sure my reasoning is sound but it felt right.

Thanks again, I'm going to go over all the in much more detail later today.

[moyoaji]

The stones at Q6 and O16 are referred to as 6-4 stones because they are 6 rows and 4 columns (or 6 columns and 4 rows) from the corner. The order of the numbers doesn't really matter, they could be referred to as 4-6 stones. Corner moves are often referenced based on their proximity to the corner. They also all have fancy Japanese names that people use sometimes and you may recognize some from Hikaru no Go.

Here are some examples:

$$Bc A 3-4 stone (komoku)
$$-------
$$|.......
$$|.......
$$|...X...
$$|...,...
$$|.......
$$|.......
$$|.......

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc A 3-4 stone (komoku)
$$-------
$$|.......
$$|.......
$$|...X...
$$|...,...
$$|.......
$$|.......
$$|.......[/go]

$$Bc A 4-4 stone (hoshi)
$$-------
$$|.......
$$|.......
$$|.......
$$|...X...
$$|.......
$$|.......
$$|.......

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc A 4-4 stone (hoshi)
$$-------
$$|.......
$$|.......
$$|.......
$$|...X...
$$|.......
$$|.......
$$|.......[/go]

$$Bc A 5-3 (3-5) stone (mokuhazushi)
$$-------
$$|.......
$$|.......
$$|....X..
$$|...,...
$$|.......
$$|.......
$$|.......

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc A 5-3 (3-5) stone (mokuhazushi)
$$-------
$$|.......
$$|.......
$$|....X..
$$|...,...
$$|.......
$$|.......
$$|.......[/go]

The more traditional understanding of go is that the 3-3, 3-4, 4-4, 3-5, and 5-4 are the "standard" corner openings with 3-4 and 4-4 being the most common. However, 5-5, 6-3, 6-4 and 10-10 (the center point - tengen) are also seen. There is a scene in the New Year's special at the end of Hikaru no Go when he is playing a student from the other Japanese Go Association. That student opens on the 5-5 point. Hikaru then plays tengen and the opponent plays another 5-5 - everyone is shocked.

[EdLee]

I'm assuming broken shape means...

Hi Rowen, very good question. It brings up a a few interesting points.

(a) When somebody makes a comment about a move -- for example, "Good for Black" --
there is some important but implicit background information, as follows:

"This is only my opinion (or evaluation/assessment) based on my current understanding and experience,
and this evaluation is for this exact board position. If you see a similar local shape,
or even an identical local shape, but in another, different global context,
even if the difference is "only" one stone, then this evaluation may not hold any more.
It may still hold, or it may not; we simply cannot say until we look at the exact new board,
and re-evaluate. Sometimes, people like to look for patterns, for generalized ideas and results,
and this can be a dangerous habit in Go, for Go is extremely specific, extremely context-sensitive.
So if you try to generalize this evaluation to other situations, you may get some good results,
or, you may get some disastrous results. It can be very dangerous to assume, especially in Go."

Since these implicit conditions are so long and tedious, usually we don't spell them out every time. Examples:

In the future, when you see comments like --

• "Too slow; White can at least jump."
• "Die in gote."
• "Submissive. Cut and fight."
• "This hane is overplay; the cut is severe."
• "Bad habit. Connect directly."
• "Bad habit, bad shape -- you hit yourself on the head."
• "Bad habit, bad sente. You reduce your own liberties."
• "Greedy/overplay. Just extend."
• "Jealous. You jumped into the smallest area. Look at the big picture."
• "Soft. Double hane."
• "Bad peep, bad sente. Big thank-you move -- you fix all your opponent's weakness here."
• "Bad shape (empty triangle)."
• "Trying to be fancy; bad aji. Just connect."
• "Connecting directly is too slow, too heavy here. Jump here instead."
• "Good. Give up those useless, heavy stones."
• "Good. Fix your weakness in sente."
• etc., etc.

-- for each note, please keep in mind the huge unspoken conditions.

(b) When we learn a new shape or sequence in Go, there are at least two initial phases:
recognition and evaluation. For example:

When we first learn about the atari:

$$ An Atari
$$ . . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . O X O . . . .
$$ . . . . O . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ An Atari
$$ . . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . O X O . . . .
$$ . . . . O . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

The first order of business is to see that the stone is in atari.
Now, what to do about the atari depends, again, on the global context.
We must evaluate the entire board to decide.

More examples:

$$ A Broken Shape for Black
$$ . . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . X . . . . .
$$ . . . O O O . . . .
$$ . . . . X . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ A Broken Shape for Black
$$ . . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . X . . . . .
$$ . . . O O O . . . .
$$ . . . . X . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

$$ Another Broken Shape for Black
$$ . . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . X . . . .
$$ . . . O O O O . . .
$$ . . . . X . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Another Broken Shape for Black
$$ . . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . X . . . .
$$ . . . O O O O . . .
$$ . . . . X . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

The recognition phase is to see that these are broken shapes for Black.
Whether these local shapes are good or bad for Black depends, once again, on the global context.

You are currently in the recognition phase.

(c) See also: Toothpaste.

[Rowen]

Finally had a moment to go though each of your comments and I really appreciate that you guys took the time to help me out.

I noticed a lot of what I was doing was placing my stones next to my opponent when I should not have. I was thinking 'capture' to much. I think I understand the subtleties of playing 'near' the attackers stones to strengthen my position on the board before attacking or just placing myself in a better position to defend if that be the case.

That brings me to something else I don't quite understand......counting territory. Seems confusing to me right now, what not to count, what to count,ect.

Thank again for the help!


Edit: Also, I've been watching Hikaru no Go....is it okay to use the Japanese rules or should I use the AGA rule sets?

[EdLee]

I think I understand the subtleties of...

Understanding is not binary. It's not either/or, not a case of either "you understand" or "you don't understand".
It's a continuum, with infinite levels and shades of subtleties. Your understanding will continue to evolve over time.

I was thinking 'capture' to [sic] much.

Correct -- this is your current level of understanding (which is quite common among beginners around your level).

is it okay to use the Japanese rules or should I use the AGA rule sets?

Either one is OK. Beware that servers like KGS are international, so not everybody is familiar with AGA rules.
Even in the US, not everybody likes to use the AGA rules. Think global.

[Rowen]

Thanks again. I like the idea of the global rules....I looked over the AGA rules and would be glad not using them lol.

[DrStraw]

I do not mean this in a mean way at all, but the best advice I would give is to play 100 games and them come back and ask for a review. The simple fact is that until you have been exposed to some basic shapes on multiple occasions you are not going to benefit from any review as much as you are from simply playing a lot and playing briskly.

[Rowen]

I do not mean this in a mean way at all, but the best advice I would give is to play 100 games and them come back and ask for a review. The simple fact is that until you have been exposed to some basic shapes on multiple occasions you are not going to benefit from any review as much as you are from simply playing a lot and playing briskly.

Thank for that, and I understand your not being mean. I do need to play.

Do any of you have tips for the end of play for counting territories. I know there are two ways....counting open spaces and counting open spaces/stones. I'm just a bit confused on the right way...special when there are small groups of stones all over.

[judicata]

I do not mean this in a mean way at all, but the best advice I would give is to play 100 games and them come back and ask for a review. The simple fact is that until you have been exposed to some basic shapes on multiple occasions you are not going to benefit from any review as much as you are from simply playing a lot and playing briskly.

Thank for that, and I understand your not being mean. I do need to play.

Do any of you have tips for the end of play for counting territories. I know there are two ways....counting open spaces and counting open spaces/stones. I'm just a bit confused on the right way...special when there are small groups of stones all over.

This is kind of hard to answer in the abstract. For these purposes, it may be easiest if you play a few games on a small board (9x9 or even 7x7). Small boards are easier to count, but the mechanics are the same. Then perhaps post one of the games here. Choose a game that went to the counting stage, or at least close to it. Otherwise, it won't be very helpful.

[Bill Spight]

A couple of comments.

[skydyr]

Even in the US, not everybody likes to use the AGA rules. Think global.

This is easier said than done. Which is more global, area counting or territory counting? There may be more countries where territory counting is the norm, but I imagine there are more people in China using area counting than there are using territory counting overall.

As a beginner, though, don't worry about any of this. The right ruleset to use is the one everyone you know uses.

[Rowen]

Even in the US, not everybody likes to use the AGA rules. Think global.

This is easier said than done. Which is more global, area counting or territory counting? There may be more countries where territory counting is the norm, but I imagine there are more people in China using area counting than there are using territory counting overall.

As a beginner, though, don't worry about any of this. The right ruleset to use is the one everyone you know uses.

Great advice....however, I live in Georgia...out in the boonie's with limited travel options (I take care of my parents and on my off days are usually taking them to appts ect). So the ones Ill be playing with are my children (both girls ages 10,12) and 'hopefully' my wife. I hope one day I can get others interested but I would like to learn more before I try to interest others. I guess the most Ill be playing others (not in my household) would be on KGS.