The impenetrable wall at 6 kyu

peti29 · Post by **peti29** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:04 am

schawipp: I wanted to write F-5, thx for correction. F-2 for black didn't occur to me, thx for suggesting it!

Ed: I'm beginning to see your point. It may also be a (bad) reason for me to jump into the corner because then a familiar joseki is most likely to follow, whereas if I extend I'll have plenty of ways to screw up. Thank you for your explanation!

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:48 pm

peti29 wrote:because then a familiar joseki is most likely to follow,
whereas if I extend I'll have plenty of ways to screw up.

MagicMagor · Post by **MagicMagor** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:36 am

It may also be a (bad) reason for me to jump into the corner because then a familiar joseki is most likely to follow, whereas if I extend I'll have plenty of ways to learn new stuff.

Fixed that for you :mrgreen:

.

Trying out new stuff is a great way to learn, even if it means screwing up badly in a lot of games. Every mistake is an opportunity to learn something new - after all if you know why your moves were bad it is unlikely that you will make the same mistake again. (There are plenty of others to make

)

This is especially true if your "normal" response doesn't look like the right move in the current situation, because then you are trying to minimize future mistakes (playing what you know) by making a mistake (playing a move that doesn't look good).

And also see it like this, by avoiding a really common joseki you not only give yourself a lot of opportunity to screw up, but maybe also a lot of opportunities for your opponent to screw up. If you are evenly matched chances of him making a mistake are not lower than the chances of you making a mistake.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:15 am

peti29 wrote:It may also be a (bad) reason for me to jump into the corner because then a familiar joseki is most likely to follow, whereas if I extend I'll have plenty of ways to screw up.

I wos fortunate enough not to learn joseki (except by picking a few things up) until I was near shodan. That way I was always getting into unfamiliar territory.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:23 am

Hi Peter,

Just want to cross reference for you:

The discussion in this thread, starting from your Post #59 --
cross reference with this other thread, Posts #3 - #5.

karaklis · Post by **karaklis** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:51 am

MagicMagor wrote:it is unlikely that you will make the same mistake again.

You severely understimate the penetrance that some people exhibit (including myself) by repeating the same mistakes over and over again :mrgreen:

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 6:16 am

karaklis wrote:
MagicMagor wrote:it is unlikely that you will make the same mistake again.
You severely understimate the penetrance that some people exhibit (including myself) by repeating the same mistakes over and over again

A bit more context:

MagicMagor wrote:if you know why your moves were bad it is unlikely that you will make the same mistake again.

( Emphasis added on "know". )

A very common mis-understanding of what it means to know, or to understand something:

Mike Novack · Post by **Mike Novack** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:00 am

Two things <<I have been keeping out of this so far>>

1) That such "walls" exist is one thing but where they exist is an entirely individual matter. Thus there may be a wall at 6 kyu for thee but mine might be at 3 kyu or 2 dan or even down at 11 kyu.

2) Sorry, knowing something is a mistake, even a second after you have placed the stone, is very different from being able to prevent yourslfe from making this sort of mistake.

For example, you see that you will have to make a certain move. This draws you focus/attention. So you miss that there is a sente move that you could have made before this one.

Problems like "following" when you shouldn't aren't really a matter of knowledge but getting sucked into a rhythm.

Dante31 · Post by **Dante31** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:49 pm

I think at 6k the fastest way to go up is to do more tsumego. Usually at 6k that is where the problem is.

nacroxnicke · Post by **nacroxnicke** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:01 am

Trying a more solid play helps, aji is a killer for player like us (kyu players)

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:33 pm

While these suggestions that you are getting are good, and reading more deeply will inevitably help your game, I would recommend that you work on the real basics too, and make sure you actually have some idea how to play the game.

Things like making sure that you see miai, and get at least one of them. This includes allowing "your" territory to be hurt in exchange for damaging your opponents. Another is making sure you have acceptable shape. Making sure you use your thickness, and aren't using it solely to build territory directly.

One thing I found very helpful for all of this is reading over commented pro games. When they say in the comments that responding to X, Y or Z is painful, make sure you feel that pain. You want to be in a place where you see a line of play on the board and it makes you cringe, because it's so submissive or you're giving your opponent moves in sente when you should tenuki.

I've seen a lot of players get stuck because they respond habitually to small moves, or fail to apply mutual damage and basically let their opponent damage their territory in sente and then protect his own. Kiai is surprisingly important, and if you lose through it's application, you'll probably learn more than if you lose by playing submissively.

The last thing is, make sure you count, so you know if you can afford to play a certain way, need to be more aggressive, or need to simplify the game.

peti29 · Post by **peti29** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 7:19 am

EdLee wrote:
peti29 wrote:because then a familiar joseki is most likely to follow,
whereas if I extend I'll have plenty of ways to screw up.

Actually, yeah. It is totally not my style to keep to dull premade moves instead of something interesting. I think it must have been due to the spastic desire to become stronger that I resorted to such play. Also, it used to be my only response to extend upwards (that a dan player showed me long ago) and now I learned I can also jump into the corner so I was now always jumping into the corner

.

Bill Spight wrote:
peti29 wrote:It may also be a (bad) reason for me to jump into the corner because then a familiar joseki is most likely to follow, whereas if I extend I'll have plenty of ways to screw up.

I wos fortunate enough not to learn joseki (except by picking a few things up) until I was near shodan. That way I was always getting into unfamiliar territory.

That means one can reach shodan without josekis. Deal! In another thread there were some movies featuring GO. There was a Youtube link to Tokyo Newcomer. When I watched the movie there was a sidebar link to a documentary about Fujisawa Shuko. He also encouraged his students to play unconventional moves. I'm aware that the very high level of his students can not be compared to me but I also feel that this approach has some validity even on my very low level of play.
Thus for now, I'll play my own go. (I also have many new aspects to integrate into my play and I think this will help.)

karaklis wrote:
MagicMagor wrote:it is unlikely that you will make the same mistake again.

You severely understimate the penetrance that some people exhibit (including myself) by repeating the same mistakes over and over again

So true.

skydyr wrote:While these suggestions that you are getting are good, and reading more deeply will inevitably help your game, I would recommend that you work on the real basics too, and make sure you actually have some idea how to play the game.

Yes, but real basics are hard to grasp. And I do have quite some (granted, probably flawed) ideas about how to play the game. Identify and unlearn bad ideas is not easy.

Finally a short game to show progress or the lack thereof:

At :w96:

I resigned because I couldn't read out a sequence that would save me the L-14 cutting stones. Amazingly though, K-14 would have worked! Got to give it to Kageyama, you indeed need to really read through your ladders...
(FYI, the sequence I missed is b K-14, w K-15, b J-14, w J-15, b H-14, w G-14, b H-15, w H-16.... and that the ladder actually doesn't work for w because of the D-16 stone)

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:21 am

Hi Peter,

See also Toothpaste and small gaps.

peti29 wrote:Amazingly though, K-14 would have worked! Got to give it to Kageyama, you indeed need to really read through your ladders...

You may want to double check -- see continuation in SGF.
The ladder is not the only thing Kageyama mentioned in his little yellow book.

cyclops · Post by **cyclops** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:45 am

So maybe he would have resigned if you had played just one more move. So don't resign because you think you might lose a ladder. Just play it out. It is even faster than reading.

StlenVlr · Post by **StlenVlr** » Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:49 am

Don't defeat yourself. Try to aim for actually winning the game. Based on that latest game record, your moves seem to completely lack spirit and meaning, they are hollow inside. Make moves that try to accomplish something, and try to make sure that the thing you're trying to accomplish is helping you to win the game.

To me it seems like you've long since stopped actually playing go, and your moves are just whatever gut reactions and reflexes that remain. Stop being like that, start fighting back. Try to win the game by reading out sequences further, by making better shape, or by gaining important objectives throughout the board.

Life In 19x19

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