It is currently Wed May 14, 2025 9:09 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 29 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Territory Confusion
Post #21 Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:55 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 653
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Liked others: 54
Was liked: 216
I think whatever resource you used to learn the rules wasn't clear because you have the wrong idea about how liberties work. Try this site:

http://playgo.to/iwtg/en/


This post by yoyoma was liked by 3 people: Bonobo, Drew, shapenaji
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Territory Confusion
Post #22 Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:14 pm 
Beginner

Posts: 6
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 0
Okay i understood that now, but I still have this one question:

http://playgo.to/iwtg/en/count.html

Here its says that the first board is considered finished, because the black stone, as pictured in the second board would be captured quite quickly. But even if so, wouldn't it shrink down white's territory drastically? Because as he said, stones are not counted as points, so white would be forced to place some stones in its own territory, reducing his points a lot. Do I oversee something here?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Territory Confusion
Post #23 Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:33 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
ThataintChessisit wrote:
Okay i understood that now, but I still have this one question:

http://playgo.to/iwtg/en/count.html

Here its says that the first board is considered finished, because the black stone, as pictured in the second board would be captured quite quickly. But even if so, wouldn't it shrink down white's territory drastically? Because as he said, stones are not counted as points, so white would be forced to place some stones in its own territory, reducing his points a lot. Do I oversee something here?


What he should have said is that the Black stone could be killed, not that it could be captured. In the second diagram the lone Black stone is dead, and after the players have agreed to end the game it is removed without capturing. OC, that means that Black has to agree that the stone is dead.

There are ways of dealing with disagreement, but since you are playing beginner vs. beginner, the easy way is to play by area scoring, which counts both stones and territory, but does not count prisoners. Then White can capture the Black stone, and the score remains the same. White wins by 5 points.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Territory Confusion
Post #24 Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:18 pm 
Beginner

Posts: 6
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 0
But why would Black disagree with the stone being dead if he could win points, and make a difference on how the end result will be, in some cases maybe even deciding who wins?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Territory Confusion
Post #25 Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:32 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2180
Location: ʍoquıɐɹ ǝɥʇ ɹǝʌo 'ǝɹǝɥʍǝɯos
Liked others: 237
Was liked: 662
Rank: AGA 5d
GD Posts: 4312
Online playing schedule: Every tenth February 29th from 20:00-20:01 (if time permits)
ThataintChessisit wrote:
But why would Black disagree with the stone being dead if he could win points, and make a difference on how the end result will be, in some cases maybe even deciding who wins?


You need to read up on the difference between Chinese and Japanese scoring. Under Chinese scoring your concerns do not come into play, as the score is not affected. Under Japanese scoring it is, but there is a provision in the rules to back out effects of disputes: the problem, of course, is that beginners may not back out accurately. But the bottom line is that, if played correctly, disputes as you mention do not affect the end result.

_________________
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Territory Confusion
Post #26 Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:33 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2264
Liked others: 1180
Was liked: 553
think of it as a shortcut.

if the black stone cannot prevent itself from being surrounded/suffocated, then we are just saving ourselves the time and energy of actually surrounding/suffocating it and capturing it.

As Bill says, if we were to use Chinese rules, then the score wouldn't change whether you played it out or not.

Using Japanese rules, if we were to force white to capture the stone without black having to respond, then white would lose points. But at this point, its both courteous and a shortcut -- black can't live, so its considered dead. There's no point in playing it out.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Territory Confusion
Post #27 Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:42 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
ThataintChessisit wrote:
But why would Black disagree with the stone being dead if he could win points, and make a difference on how the end result will be, in some cases maybe even deciding who wins?


You mean why would he agree? The point is that disagreeing would not make any difference in the score. Different versions of territory rules handle the disagreement differently, but they agree with each other except in rare instances. They certainly agree here. The lone Black stone is dead. You can learn such methods if you like, but the easy thing to do is to use area scoring.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Territory Confusion
Post #28 Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:43 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1103
Location: Netherlands
Liked others: 408
Was liked: 422
Rank: EGF 4d
GD Posts: 952
... And this long series of discussions is why I think we should just abandon territory scoring entirely. Why do we make this so hard on ourselves?

In any case, as Bill said, use area scoring, a point for each stone on the board, and a point for each empty space. If one side disagrees, resume play.

_________________
Tactics yes, Tact no...


This post by shapenaji was liked by: xed_over
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Territory Confusion
Post #29 Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:48 pm 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 660
Liked others: 25
Was liked: 124
Rank: Miserable 4k
KGS: STOP STALKING ME
shapenaji wrote:
... And this long series of discussions is why I think we should just abandon territory scoring entirely. Why do we make this so hard on ourselves?

In any case, as Bill said, use area scoring, a point for each stone on the board, and a point for each empty space. If one side disagrees, resume play.


And no more bent 4 controversies.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 29 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group