Boidhre wrote:Because it's the internet and when someone says beginner you don't know if they're saying it sneeringly or warmly whereas with speech it'd be clear. The problem isn't the word, the problem is the lack of tone and body language that normally goes with it and this means if it's used without much context it can be interpreted very negatively by some people.
True, but every word will have this problem. 'Beginner' did not became derogatory on the internet but in real life - and then this spilled to the internet. It will be the same with each word we pick, eventually, because of the attitudes people have and not because we pick a better word.
Bottom line: (some/most?) people look down upon beginners. This has to stop! If it does not stop, which word we pick is meaningless.
I agree with you. I think the problem of people caring too much about rank is at the root of this, make yourself feel good about your current rank by talking down to someone with a lower one or somesuch nonsense.
i find knowing chinese and english very helpful for learning go. there are too many subtleties in the asian languages with explaining situations that just don't exist in english.
Boidhre wrote:Because it's the internet and when someone says beginner you don't know if they're saying it sneeringly or warmly whereas with speech it'd be clear. The problem isn't the word, the problem is the lack of tone and body language that normally goes with it and this means if it's used without much context it can be interpreted very negatively by some people.
True, but every word will have this problem. 'Beginner' did not became derogatory on the internet but in real life - and then this spilled to the internet. It will be the same with each word we pick, eventually, because of the attitudes people have and not because we pick a better word.
Bottom line: (some/most?) people look down upon beginners. This has to stop! If it does not stop, which word we pick is meaningless.
I agree with you. I think the problem of people caring too much about rank is at the root of this, make yourself feel good about your current rank by talking down to someone with a lower one or somesuch nonsense.
Heh, yeah. I’m so glad I’m already a beginner, and not anymore a bloody beginner
What about 30-25k – bloody beginner, 24-5k “seems to stick with it” beginner, 4k-1k – intermediate beginner, 1d-3d – advanced beginner, 4d-5d – aspiring talent, 6d-9p – master player, 11d – expert?
“The only difference between me and a madman is that I’m not mad.” — Salvador Dali
Wait.... are people taking this poll seriously? Is not the idea that a game which is far more prevalent among Asian communities, but this is an English forum, being considered a massive skewing issue? Can we test how strong players are in Korea versus if they are bilingual?
This is like going to Japan, and starting a poll that bilingual people are more adept at knowing the rules of American Football. It is flawed from the outset.
Last edited by i3ullseye on Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
These polls in which the respondents select themselves are not meaningful statistically. As it is said, they are not scientific but "for entertainment only".
gowan wrote:These polls in which the respondents select themselves are not meaningful statistically. As it is said, they are not scientific but "for entertainment only".
I think the biggest takeaway is that most people on here are not monolingual, or if they are, they're not talking.
I selected bilingual for the sake of this poll, since I'm better at Japanese than go, but I'm far from a level where I would actually describe myself as such.
skydyr wrote:
gowan wrote:These polls in which the respondents select themselves are not meaningful statistically. As it is said, they are not scientific but "for entertainment only".
I think the biggest takeaway is that most people on here are not monolingual, or if they are, they're not talking.
They probably didn't understand the question since it was only delivered in one language. Statistically bilinguals are twice as likely to be able to answer.
Last edited by Splatted on Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Given the distribution of the go population in Europe, given the vast majority of Western go material is in English, it would be strange if we didn't have a lot of bi/multilingual people on here mixing with the monoglot plebs. That and throw in the Japan/China/Korea enthusiasts where go tied in nicely to their language study.
gowan wrote:These polls in which the respondents select themselves are not meaningful statistically. As it is said, they are not scientific but "for entertainment only".
Especially as it is an English forum with the majority of participants being non-native English speakers, or so I would guess. Everyone here speaks English so the question is really equivalent to "Are you a non-native speaker?" as English speakers are notoriously bad at learning second languages.
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).
Well I did say "most" people under 10 kyu KGS are beginners. In learning a language a the levels of competency are beginner, intermediate and advanced. A person can study years and not reach an intermediate level. I think it took me 2 years to become 9kyu and now after 12 years playing I am around 2 dan. It took me a while to become bilingual also. Neither came naturally to me but I think advice for learning/teaching a second language could apply to learning go.
For example:
"scaffolding theory" I+1 You want to speak with your student at a level that is one step higher and the theory is that you are helping them scaffold to the next level.
So if you are an 12kyu maybe you could look at 8 kyu games and ask yourself how there go differs from your own.
"Don't fear mistakes"
You need to push yourself to play go that is slightly beyond your level so you can grow as a player. When playing a strong player make some bad moves to see how they respond to it. Some moves you think are bad can actually be good under certain circumstances.
The teacher should not scold mistakes. If the student is afraid to make mistakes then they just play comfortable moves and not progress.
I've been learning Chinese for about two years, and none of my abilities, reading, writing, listening or speaking, are above 20k. I don't have any problem being called a beginner. "Beginner" doesn't just indicate how long you have been doing something, it also signifies a skill level. A 15k isn't very good at go. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just a fact. Some would say that a 1k isn't very good either - though it's also true that a 1k is better than a 15k.
I get ticked off when I hear people say that anyone can reach 1d, because I don't think it's true, but there is no shame at being a 5k or a 15k or not being good at Chinese. One's skill level is a fact, and I don't see the sense in getting riled up by a fact.
I think the poll tells that most people on this forum are bilingual/multilingual.
As for the other topic that apparently needs to be put into spoiler tags. I remember how proud I was when I reached 14k . However let's not forget that a 14k can beat a 23k with 9 handicap! Go is deep.
The underlying question is whether there is a correlation between go skill and other skills. Often Westerners who are good at go are technically skilled, though this doesn't seem to hold true in the East. I can see why technical skill might go hand in hand with go skill, at least up to a certain level, because both require patient careful thinking - but I am not sure why bi-lingualism should correlate with go skill. It didn't take me much effort to get to the equivalent of 1d level in my second language (at age 25), and after immersing myself in it, I got to 5d without particularly working at it. I've already put much more work into go and Chinese and am still quite weak at both. I don't see much of a connection.
. However let's not forget that a 14k can beat a 23k with 9 handicap! Go is deep.