Seven stones

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:07 am

Hi Thimblefox,

good.

W has 2 ways to cut this keima, starting at o6 or P6.
See note on

.

-

standard bad habit: "push and retreat".
W should cut on

at P7: "push and cut".
If W could not or didn't want to cut at P7, then don't push with

at all.

You were lucky W didn't cut at P7.

No. After the peep

, the local follow-up is L2 attach.
If L2 fails, then don't peep with

at all.

good, locally: broken shape for B.
Even better is hane E1.

study the local variations if you kosumi at G8 instead;
see what happens if W pushes and cuts, ataris, etc.

locally this is bad shape for W; but your bottom group is in trouble.

-

locally this exchange is terrible for you: broken shape.
Globally, this bottom group is in trouble, because of earlier mistakes.

-

locally disaster broken shape for you.
Compare to

.

turn at H6.

bad habit. You think about why this is bad.
Just connect directly at

.

-

101 same bad habit: "push and retreat".
After the push

, the follow-up is cut.
If you cannot cut or don't want to cut, then don't push to begin with.
Compare with

-

.

Notice for all the notes so far, up to

101,
all were basic shape problems (except for your bottom group
getting into trouble, which is a bigger-picture problem. )

Thimblefox · Post by **Thimblefox** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:31 am

To your comments, Amelia.

: I know what kind of position the fuseki aims at, exactly why that's a good position I don't know(!). But that's also why I'm playing it, For instance now I get the opportunity to explore how to reply to

. As for the aim of the fuseki itself, I simply know the 'what' (using your opponent's approach to build territory), but as is rather obvious, I don't know the 'how'.

: First off, thanks for the energy you put into this little analysis.

Now I want to explore what replying with O16 would look like, because variation 3 and 4 both look problematic for black (not sure about variation 5 right now).

I'll look a bit closer at these variations.

: This is true, but then I'm dealing with either a pincer or a corner invasion. And it looks like white can push me into this position? (But maybe

at A would be a better result for me

)

: I was thinking I might develop influence on the lower right. But I still have to look at how white can exploit this. Fuseki sure is complicated.

: Here I was thinking that the wall would give me influence towards the centre. If white doesn't play at R10, I was thinking I could play there after playing A or B, and then use it to push him down. But there's probably some move here I haven't looked at. I'll take a better look at it.

: Thanks, EdLee. I thought I'd just get cut if I played a hane, and then it'd easily die.

: I'll look into this.

should be played at P7 then? Ah, just continued reading. Glad I came to the same conclusion as you then.

: I was thinking of L2, but didn't know if it would work. I promise to do more tsumego.

Boidhre · Post by **Boidhre** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:42 am

Thimblefox wrote:: This is true, but then I'm dealing with either a pincer or a corner invasion. And it looks like white can push me into this position? (But maybe at A would be a better result for me )

$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O 5 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O 5 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

You don't need to worry too much about opponents doing that to you for quite some time.

You can keep it simpler by playing at P15 if you want.

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:54 am

Thimblefox wrote:T

: This is true, but then I'm dealing with either a pincer or a corner invasion. And it looks like white can push me into this position? (But maybe at A would be a better result for me )

$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O 5 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O 5 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . W 5 X 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black can just take the corner and the marked white stone is left looking a bit pointless. White's right side group isn't exactly going to be making big points either, with Q10 there. That's not to say that it's terrible for white, but it's certainly playable for black.

Amelia · Post by **Amelia** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:33 am

Thimblefox wrote:(using your opponent's approach to build territory)

It could go this way, it doesn't have to. But I was curious to know your plan.

Thimblefox wrote:I don't know the 'how'.

You and me both. The 'how' is always the bigger challenge

Now I want to explore what replying with O16 would look like, because variation 3 and 4 both look problematic for black (not sure about variation 5 right now). I'll look a bit closer at these variations.

All of the white moves I showed you are playable for black. Have a look at some joseki from those positions and think at what the result would look like for you. You'll see neither the invasion nor the double approach are really that scary. The challenge is to get the "how" right. And here we are back at tsumego

Edit: by the way have a good look at the shape moves EdLee showed you. All of those are very important for developping good tactics.

: This is true, but then I'm dealing with either a pincer or a corner invasion. And it looks like white can push me into this position? (But maybe at A would be a better result for me )

Others already answered better than I could

: I was thinking I might develop influence on the lower right. But I still have to look at how white can exploit this. Fuseki sure is complicated.

: Here I was thinking that the wall would give me influence towards the centre. If white doesn't play at R10, I was thinking I could play there after playing A or B, and then use it to push him down. But there's probably some move here I haven't looked at. I'll take a better look at it.

Well, white is quite thin in the area. So you can expect to push him down. But the way he will answer your moves will change the board. Your opponent will want to avoid being surrounded (Being surrounded this early in the opening is normally bad). He probably won't be happy about taking 2nd line territory all the way and leaving you a perfect wall on the outside. He'll by trying to get out.
So before you start pushing him around, you need to think about where you'll be pushing him.
Depending on where you start, the board won't look the same. Choosing a direction can be very difficult.

Boidhre · Post by **Boidhre** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:19 pm

More usual:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . W 5 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Sorry, I didn't spot

being out of place.

Thimblefox · Post by **Thimblefox** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:45 pm

Before I joined IGS, I looked up the ranking system on Sensei's Library, and came to the conclusion that if I assumed my rank was 15k on KGS at best, I should set myself as BC on IGS. First I found that the BC's were just too weak, so I played a few people who were 17k?, I defeated most of them as well. The following match I played, was against someone who was 17k+, and so I realized that perhaps Sensei's Library hasn't gotten this right after all.

I usually play on IGS with my cell phone around midday while my daughter sleeps in her baby carriage. So I haven't been too picky with opponents. I have about an hour of playtime before she wakes up. Anyways, I'm wondering when I'll get a fixed rank, and I hope I'm not going to get placed totally absurdly because I've messed everything up with the ranking system. My profile on IGS says "9 wins 1 losses (rating 4 matches) / 17k? (0 points)".

I assume this means that out of these 10 matches, 4 of them were rated, but I can't figure out why. I mean, aren't matches between two BC players rated either? But even excluding the BC games, I still have 7 games, all against normal opponents. But somehow 3 of those games weren't rated then..

And the system doesn't tell me which games were rated either. It's sort of confusing.

As for the game file, at move 213 I say that "A looks better", I mean that move 213 at A would be better.

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:18 am

Hi

Despite a mistake in the beginning, you completely outplayed your opponent and this is a game to be proud of. In particular:

- you built a strategic advantage despite the initial tactical loss
- you cut his groups
- you kept his groups eyeless
- you never made any big mistake anymore despite the pressure of winning a won game

these are all goodies to take with you

In what follows, I'll point out some technical issues which will become important as you play better opponents, with most importantly

15: cut
47: reduce liberties
71: fantastic strategic thinking
95 & 159: empty triangles are very often worse than local alternatives

Knotwilg (kw)

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:23 am

Most important thing to pick up on really is one of the most basic and fundamental Go principles - keep yourself connected, keep your opponent's groups separated (when his groups are independently weak) - and remember the value of sente. If he's threatening to catch an unimportant stone on the edge, it's probably not big enough to care about.

Thimblefox · Post by **Thimblefox** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 11:12 am

Knotwilg wrote: 95 & 159: empty triangles are very often worse than local alternatives

This was such an eye opener, I never think about empty triangles when it comes to bigger groups.

Thimblefox · Post by **Thimblefox** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 11:21 am

Also what you both said about the group at move 45 was very instructive. And for my next game I'll keep an eye out for empty triangles (if I fail to do so during the game itself then at least during the review

)

Thimblefox · Post by **Thimblefox** » Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:23 pm

So IGS has decided that I'm 14k? and not 17k? after I won a game by accident (opponent disconnected and didn't return). These two were a lot more challenging, and I was kind of daunted. But if I just take care to try to make my groups live, I don't think I'm on that uneven ground.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:10 pm

Hi Thimblefox,

About empty triangles, may I suggest the next time you are about to play one,
pause. Stop. For at least one minute. 60 seconds.
Take some deep breaths. See if you can find a better move.
( In some cases, you cannot; in some special situations, the empty triangle is an excellent move. )
But quite often, there is at least one better local move.

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:34 pm

Hi

Don't give up just because you are disappointed. Continue until it really looks like a big loss and you can calmly accept it.

This game is much worse than the one previously discussed. There are quite a few moves that seem nonsensical. So, can you explain what you thought when playing and what you now think of:

47
49
51
55
111
119
121
127
129

In your own analysis, you make a few good points though, so you probably played way below your capabilities. Was it a fast or otherwise distracted game?

BTW, as EdLee also points out, the vow to critically avoid empty triangles didn't quite work out. See 131 among others.

A few good moves: 11, 21, 59, 67, 81 ... Carry those with you.

Thimblefox · Post by **Thimblefox** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:54 am

Hi Knotwilg,

I wasn't really disappointed. I essentially thought that it looked like a big loss, and that it wouldn't make much sense to play on.

47: Alright, so he can simply cut me at S6. But I was thinking that I could connect. I could've played S6 myself I guess.

49: Well, this is me not knowing what to do with that group. I guess I'd just play at some star point now, or get that group connected by playing S6.

51: Umm, I don't know.

55: I thought they might help me build territory I guess.

111: I could've done something for my group on the lower left, I guess. I can't really say myself what I'm aiming for there.

119: Playing at G2 would at least be making eye shape.

121: Umm... making empty triangles and destroying my own eye shape?

127: I guess I wanted to save that group? I'd just play K7 and try to make eyes on the left now.

129: This also seems kind of senseless. Maybe J7 would've let my group live though.

I wasn't that distracted really, but I was struggling to see good moves for some reason. Maybe I was more tired than I though? I'm not certain. Since he put up such a fight I totally forgot to think about empty triangles and alternatives though.

Life In 19x19

Seven stones

Re: Return of the newbie

Re: Return of the newbie

Re: Return of the newbie

Re: Return of the newbie

Re: Return of the newbie

Re: Return of the newbie

Re: Return of the newbie

Re: Return of the newbie

Re: Return of the newbie

Re: Return of the newbie

Re: Return of the newbie

Re: Return of the newbie

Re: Return of the newbie