Tsumego thinking log

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:39 pm

Calvin Clark wrote:@Cassandra:

$$W
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X O O 3 . .
$$ | . X O O X X O 2 .
$$ | . . O , X 5 X 1 .
$$ | . O O X X 6 . 4 .
$$ | . O X O O O O . .
$$ | . X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ ------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . X . . . . . . . $$ | . O X X O O 3 . . $$ | . X O O X X O 2 . $$ | . . O , X 5 X 1 . $$ | . O O X X 6 . 4 . $$ | . O X O O O O . . $$ | . X X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

And if at ?

Calvin Clark · Post by **Calvin Clark** » Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:03 am

Another B class problem from the famous Segoe / Go Seigen Tesuji collection

Problem 4

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black to play $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . X O O . . X X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . X X O . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hint:

Calvin Clark · Post by **Calvin Clark** » Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:12 pm

My thinking on Problem 4:

Well, I pretty much saw the following instantly, and this is in fact all that is shown in the book. :b1:

is common tesuji and I'd seen the move in other contexts recently.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B The book solution $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . X O O . a X X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . X X O . 3 O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O 2 1 b . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Maybe stronger players would consider this all that is necessary, but I spent a lot of time trying to think past :b3:

. In particular, does white 'a' or 'b' lead anywhere useful for white? It looks like :b2:

works for black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W The cut $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . X O O . 1 X X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . X X O 7 X O O 8 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O O X 6 2 3 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For the hane underneath, I see this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W The hane ( connects ) $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . X O O . 5 X X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . X X O 7 X O O 0 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O O X 1 2 3 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 9 . 4 . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I read the previous two variations without looking at the board. I was just sitting around at lunch trying to remember the position. This is basically all I could remember, but it was enough to think about it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B kyu fuzzy thinking $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? . . ? . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? . . . | $$ | . . ? . . . . . . . . . . . ? ? ? . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . ? . . | $$ | . . ? ? . . . . X O O . . X X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . ? . X X O . 3 O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O 2 1 b . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Calvin Clark · Post by **Calvin Clark** » Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:45 pm

Problem 5

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X X . X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

It's from this book. I can't read the title. I got it as a prize some time ago.

: book.jpg (218.67 KiB) Viewed 20075 times

Calvin Clark · Post by **Calvin Clark** » Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:05 pm

My thinking on Problem 5:

It is clear that white threatens to connect at 'a', so immediate moves in the corner like 'b' and 'c' won't be enough.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | b O . . O . a . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X X . X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

The first thing I see is a failure for black. After :w8:

white is alive:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Failure for black $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . 4 3 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 2 O 8 7 O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X X . X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

A modified line seems to work. (At this point, to me white is dead by inspection.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 2 O 5 . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X X . X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

However, all of this is wrong. When I peaked at the solution, I noticed a fatal flaw in :b1:

.

is sente, so after :w4:

white can either live at 'a' or cut and connect to :wc:

at 'b'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . 4 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | a O . . O 1 b . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O X . . W . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X X . X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

The book gives the following solution. The sad part is that I had considered this :b1:

after my first reading failed, but it never occurred to me to use it because I wasn't considering the impact that white's hane in the above diagram is sente. Of course, sente hanes can always alter the life and death status of a problem so it's something I should have checked. Had I checked it, I may have considered the tesuji of :b1:

below, since it is something on my radar.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . 3 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 2 O 5 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X X . X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

At this point it's similar to the previous shape I showed, but the book shows white trying to resist. After :b6:

, white 'a' and 'b' are self-atari:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . 5 a X O X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O X b O 1 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 6 X O O O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X X a B . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Exercise for the reader. If :bc:

were the solid connection at 'a', would :b1:

still work?

Calvin Clark · Post by **Calvin Clark** » Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:50 pm

A C-level problem (the easiest) from the Segoe / Go Seigen Tesuji collection.

Problem 6

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black to play $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . O X O . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , O X O X O , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . X . O . X O X . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hint:

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:32 pm

Hi Calvin,

It's a collection of tsumegos with Go Seigen's name.
( There's a bit more info in the Chinese title;
but I don't know the original Japanese version... :study:

)

tchan001 · Post by **tchan001** » Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:15 am

Your picture of 吴清源围棋高级死活集 can be translated as Go Seigen Weiqi Advanced Level L&D Collection.
It is the Chinese translation of the original Japanese version 呉清源の詰碁集 ②上級編 (Go Seigen's Tsumego Collection 2 Intermediate Edition)

Calvin Clark · Post by **Calvin Clark** » Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:29 pm

My thinking on Problem 6:

My reading looked like this. :b1:

is a natural cut. Black is looking to use the :bc:

, perhaps sacrifice them, to get some strength on the outside.

Up to :w10:

, my reading is the same as the book solution.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Looking for a squeeze play ( at ). $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X 7 3 . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . 5 4 2 X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X 6 1 O X O . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . 0 O B O X O , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . X . O 9 B O X . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . B O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I imagined continuing like this. (I know, black has a crude shape in the corner.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B My line $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X O O X 5 . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . 1 O O B O X O , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . X 3 O X B O X . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 B O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, the book shows a, um, simpler way :oops:

. Here's the problem for me. Even looking at the position after :w10:

in the original diagram, I would not have necessarily seen this :b1:

right away. Reading in my head, the picture is fuzzier, but I think, more importantly, I had low expectations for the solution.

Also, simplistic liberty counts wouldn't have helped me. At :w10:

in the original diagram, black has 2 liberties and white has 3. After :b1:

below, white has two liberties and black has 4, so the situation changes.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Book solution $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X O O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O O B O X O , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . X . O X B O X . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . B O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:16 pm

A couple of comments.

Calvin Clark wrote:My thinking on Problem 6:

Calvin Clark wrote:
$$B My line
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X 5 . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 1 O O B O X O , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . X 3 O X B O X . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 B O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B My line $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X O O X 5 . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . 1 O O B O X O , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . X 3 O X B O X . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 B O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here is my vote for :w2:

.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B My line $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X 3 . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X O O X 2 . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . 1 O O X O X O , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . X . O X X O X . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Calvin Clark wrote:Also, simplistic liberty counts wouldn't have helped me. At in the original diagram, black has 2 liberties and white has 3. After below, white has two liberties and black has 4, so the situation changes.

$$B Book solution
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O B O X O , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . X . O X B O X . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . B O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Book solution $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X O O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O O B O X O , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . X . O X B O X . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . B O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

We should assume the following sente

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Sente $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X O O X . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O O B O X O , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . X . O X B O X . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 1 3 B O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And count Black with 3 dame.

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