Tsumego thinking log

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Cassandra
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Re: Re:

Post by Cassandra »

Calvin Clark wrote:@Cassandra:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X O O 3 . .
$$ | . X O O X X O 2 .
$$ | . . O , X 5 X 1 .
$$ | . O O X X 6 . 4 .
$$ | . O X O O O O . .
$$ | . X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
And if :b2: at :w3:?
(2) Black's wishful thinking in the centre.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . . 0 . . . . .
$$ | . . . 9 6 . . . .
$$ | . X 8 7 5 4 . . .
$$ | . O X X O O 2 . .
$$ | . X O O X X O 3 .
$$ | . . O , X . X 1 .
$$ | . O O X X . . . .
$$ | . O X O O O O . .
$$ | . X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm11
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | 8 6 4 , . . . . .
$$ | 7 5 3 X . . . . .
$$ | . 2 1 O X . . . .
$$ | . X X O O X . . .
$$ | . O X X O O X . .
$$ | . X O O X X O O .
$$ | . . O , X . X O .
$$ | . O O X X . . . .
$$ | . O X O O O O . .
$$ | . X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
-->
(3) White's stopping the ladder work.

((Remember that the "simple" atari at 7 is part of the ladder shown above, and so useless to be played instead of White 1))
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
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Re: Tsumego thinking log

Post by Calvin Clark »

Another B class problem from the famous Segoe / Go Seigen Tesuji collection

Problem 4
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . X O O . . X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . X X O . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Hint:
Section is on placements.
Last edited by Calvin Clark on Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tsumego thinking log

Post by Calvin Clark »

My thinking on Problem 4:
Well, I pretty much saw the following instantly, and this is in fact all that is shown in the book. :b1: is common tesuji and I'd seen the move in other contexts recently.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B The book solution
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . X O O . a X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . X X O . 3 O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O O 2 1 b . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Maybe stronger players would consider this all that is necessary, but I spent a lot of time trying to think past :b3:. In particular, does white 'a' or 'b' lead anywhere useful for white? It looks like :b2: works for black:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W The cut
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . X O O . 1 X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . X X O 7 X O O 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O O O X 6 2 3 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
For the hane underneath, I see this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W The hane ( :b8: connects )
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . X O O . 5 X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . X X O 7 X O O 0 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O O O X 1 2 3 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 9 . 4 . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I read the previous two variations without looking at the board. I was just sitting around at lunch trying to remember the position. This is basically all I could remember, but it was enough to think about it.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B kyu fuzzy thinking
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? . . ? . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? . . . |
$$ | . . ? . . . . . . . . . . . ? ? ? . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . ? . . |
$$ | . . ? ? . . . . X O O . . X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . ? . X X O . 3 O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O O 2 1 b . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Last edited by Calvin Clark on Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tsumego thinking log

Post by Calvin Clark »

Problem 5
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
It's from this book. I can't read the title. I got it as a prize some time ago.
book.jpg
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Re: Tsumego thinking log

Post by Calvin Clark »

My thinking on Problem 5:
It is clear that white threatens to connect at 'a', so immediate moves in the corner like 'b' and 'c' won't be enough.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | b O . . O . a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

The first thing I see is a failure for black. After :w8: white is alive:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Failure for black
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . 4 3 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 2 O 8 7 O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
A modified line seems to work. (At this point, to me white is dead by inspection.)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 2 O 5 . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

However, all of this is wrong. When I peaked at the solution, I noticed a fatal flaw in :b1:. :w2: is sente, so after :w4: white can either live at 'a' or cut and connect to :wc: at 'b'.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . 4 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | a O . . O 1 b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . . W . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
The book gives the following solution. The sad part is that I had considered this :b1: after my first reading failed, but it never occurred to me to use it because I wasn't considering the impact that white's hane in the above diagram is sente. Of course, sente hanes can always alter the life and death status of a problem so it's something I should have checked. Had I checked it, I may have considered the tesuji of :b1: below, since it is something on my radar.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . 3 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 2 O 5 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
At this point it's similar to the previous shape I showed, but the book shows white trying to resist. After :b6:, white 'a' and 'b' are self-atari:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . 5 a X O X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O X b O 1 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 6 X O O O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X a B . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Exercise for the reader. If :bc: were the solid connection at 'a', would :b1: still work?
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Re: Tsumego thinking log

Post by Calvin Clark »

A C-level problem (the easiest) from the Segoe / Go Seigen Tesuji collection.

Problem 6
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O X O . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , O X O X O , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . X . O . X O X . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Hint:
shibori
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Post by EdLee »

Hi Calvin,

It's a collection of tsumegos with Go Seigen's name.
( There's a bit more info in the Chinese title;
but I don't know the original Japanese version... :study: )
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Re: Tsumego thinking log

Post by tchan001 »

Your picture of 吴清源围棋高级死活集 can be translated as Go Seigen Weiqi Advanced Level L&D Collection.
It is the Chinese translation of the original Japanese version 呉清源の詰碁集 ②上級編 (Go Seigen's Tsumego Collection 2 Intermediate Edition)
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http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.
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Re: Tsumego thinking log

Post by Calvin Clark »

My thinking on Problem 6:
My reading looked like this. :b1: is a natural cut. Black is looking to use the :bc:, perhaps sacrifice them, to get some strength on the outside.

Up to :w10:, my reading is the same as the book solution.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Looking for a squeeze play ( :b8: at :w1: ).
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 7 3 . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 5 4 2 X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X 6 1 O X O . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 0 O B O X O , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . X . O 9 B O X . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I imagined continuing like this. (I know, black has a crude shape in the corner.)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B My line
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X 5 . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 1 O O B O X O , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . X 3 O X B O X . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 B O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
However, the book shows a, um, simpler way :oops:. Here's the problem for me. Even looking at the position after :w10: in the original diagram, I would not have necessarily seen this :b1: right away. Reading in my head, the picture is fuzzier, but I think, more importantly, I had low expectations for the solution.

Also, simplistic liberty counts wouldn't have helped me. At :w10: in the original diagram, black has 2 liberties and white has 3. After :b1: below, white has two liberties and black has 4, so the situation changes.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Book solution
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O B O X O , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . X . O X B O X . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . B O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Tsumego thinking log

Post by Bill Spight »

A couple of comments.
Calvin Clark wrote:My thinking on Problem 6:
Calvin Clark wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B My line
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X 5 . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 1 O O B O X O , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . X 3 O X B O X . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 B O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Here is my vote for :w2:.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B My line
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X 3 . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X 2 . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 1 O O X O X O , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . X . O X X O X . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Calvin Clark wrote:Also, simplistic liberty counts wouldn't have helped me. At :w10: in the original diagram, black has 2 liberties and white has 3. After :b1: below, white has two liberties and black has 4, so the situation changes.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Book solution
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O B O X O , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . X . O X B O X . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . B O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
We should assume the following sente
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Sente
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O X O . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O B O X O , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . X . O X B O X . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 3 B O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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