Yose = endgame? No way, Jose!

[Bill Spight]

Can someone explain the etymology of ヨセ ? Thanks.

Yose is often written in katakana, as a technical term. But here is the usual kanji, these days, with the hiragana ending.

寄せ

And, just to irritate John, here is an online definition.

２ 囲碁・将棋の終盤戦の細かい詰め。

[EdLee]

Hi Bill, thanks. Still curious about the etymology, though.

[sorin]

LZ's array of moves did not include Chitoku's A, but it did include D, E, F, G and H, and so it clearly likewise gave a high priority to this area.

Furthermore, I would characterise all its 19 choices as yose moves - 5 of them were on the second line. The reason for not including Chitoku's A can quite likely be explained by the fact that there was no komi, i.e. Chitoku could afford to play conservatively.

Black is behind (if judging the game in terms of 7.5 komi, which is what LZ does, like you wrote) so LZ is trying to find more active moves first.

LZ's choices indeed are around enlarging upper area, but the 2nd line moves are by no means endgame, they are yosumiru moves which can be played at any stage of the game in an attempt to force the opponent to commit early and thus take an advantage.

Also, the options on high lines are not endgame moves either, they are more likely meant to force an invasion which in turns increases Black's chances to get back into the game.

[Bill Spight]

Hi Bill, thanks. Still curious about the etymology, though.

Hi, Ed.

Not sure what you are looking for. (Not that I can help, OC. )

[EdLee]

Hi Bill,

Example: calligraphy comes from Greek, kallos + graphein, meaning beautiful writing.

Curious: origin of ヨセ.

[Kirby]

Hi Bill,

Example: calligraphy comes from Greek, kallos + graphein, meaning beautiful writing.

Curious: origin of ヨセ.

I don't know the answer, and I want to study other things today instead of researching more about this (I've got a routine to stick to!), but a couple of things:
* I've seen Bill's kanji used before, but think I've also seen 侵分 - I didn't really want to get into it, and I most often see katakana, so that's why I didn't put kanji in my earlier comment
* Slightly off topic, but I found this comment about 結局 interesting:

結局
「局」は、将棋や囲碁の盤をさし、試合は一局、二局……と数えます。
一局の流れのうち、終盤戦のことを囲碁ではヨセと言いますが、このヨセは、平安時代には「けち」と呼ばれていました。「結着」の「結」の意味です。
つまり、平安時代の囲碁用語が「結局」の語源なわけです。「けじめ」も、「けち」から派生した言葉だという説もあります。

(from https://info.honzuki.jp/post-12721/)

Maybe when English speakers use the word "yose", they mean something closer to kekkyoku

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Bantari]

Many people here regard yose as meaning the endgame. I have long tried to correct that misapprehension, pointing out that yose moves can occur in the opening. There has been a grudging acceptance among a few strong players that, yes, well, there are a few josekis where you can play yose moves, but most people are surprisingly resistant. Which is one reason I like to harp on about it

Why?

Not to be contrary, but I am not sure that it really matters. And also, I am not convinced that you are right - although I acknowledge your deeper knowledge of the subject. Or maybe I simply don't get it. Let me explain my thinking:

So we sometimes make yose moves in earlier stages of the game... so what? We make endgame-type moves in chess openings as well, this does not mean chess does not have endgames, or 'endgame' does not mean what we think it does.

The only reason to 'harp' on this, as you say, would be - imho - if the Japanese use the term 'yose' in a certain way, and we just use the same term differently. Not sure it does any harm, does it? We aren't actually going to speak Japanese, so its only a term, really. We might as well call it fluffy.

Also - personally - I always felt there is a deep cultural difference between the oriental thinking and western thinking - whatever those words mean. For a Japanese, yose might mean multiple things. A type of move, the stage of the game, and more - or anything in between. And in their minds it is ok to be that fuzzy, maybe. We might like things more precisely. So we use yose as denoting something very specific - the last stage of the game. Then we use terms like 'yose-move' to denote moves which are made earlier in the game but which aim and scope is akin to those usually made in the yose.

Cannot the same be said of the other stages of the game?

[Elom]

If someone could give an accurate definition of fuseki, I would be interested.

I guarantee you good results after ten thousand games.

Good thing to know that I will finally get results by year 2049.

Haha! Banzo would be proud .

. . . We might like things more precisely. So we use yose as denoting something very specific - the last stage of the game. Then we use terms like 'yose-move' to denote moves which are made earlier in the game but which aim and scope is akin to those usually made in the yose. . .

[/quote]

That's interesting; I find easier (and more logical) to think of yose as a type of move and yose-stage as an informal reference to the endgame.

[Elom]

. . . Also - personally - I always felt there is a deep cultural difference between the oriental thinking and western thinking - whatever those words mean. For a Japanese, yose might mean multiple things. A type of move, the stage of the game, and more - or anything in between. And in their minds it is ok to be that fuzzy, maybe. We might like things more precisely. So we use yose as denoting something very specific - the last stage of the game. Then we use terms like 'yose-move' to denote moves which are made earlier in the game but which aim and scope is akin to those usually made in the yose.

Cannot the same be said of the other stages of the game?

Kung Fu is akin to hardwork and willpower, something you can have in anything from cooking to go. However, the English meaning of it that refers to what the Chinese call wushu has made it into the dictionary. But it might be confusing if every fourth fighting term had a different english meaning to the original .

[sorin]

Many people here regard yose as meaning the endgame. I have long tried to correct that misapprehension, pointing out that yose moves can occur in the opening. There has been a grudging acceptance among a few strong players that, yes, well, there are a few josekis where you can play yose moves, but most people are surprisingly resistant. Which is one reason I like to harp on about it

Why?

Not to be contrary, but I am not sure that it really matters. And also, I am not convinced that you are right - although I acknowledge your deeper knowledge of the subject. Or maybe I simply don't get it. Let me explain my thinking:

So we sometimes make yose moves in earlier stages of the game... so what? We make endgame-type moves in chess openings as well, this does not mean chess does not have endgames, or 'endgame' does not mean what we think it does.

The only reason to 'harp' on this, as you say, would be - imho - if the Japanese use the term 'yose' in a certain way, and we just use the same term differently. Not sure it does any harm, does it? We aren't actually going to speak Japanese, so its only a term, really. We might as well call it fluffy.

Indeed it doesn't matter what word we use as long as there is clear understanding about the concept it represents - "yose" or "fluffy" in your example.

What it does matter though is what the concept is, which is what John is talking about. I recently came across this article which is related to this topic - it is as simple as having different words for different colors/nuances influences the brain's perception of colors:
https://qz.com/1454466/your-language-in ... new-study/

In a country with a richer Go history/culture like Japan, it is quite likely that there are lots more nuances about various type of moves and various game concepts, and those are reflected in their language. While in the process of exporting Go to the Western world, lots of these nuances have been lost.

Personally I appreciate very much John's effort to make us understand more about the Japanese culture and history related to our beloved game - even if I don't always fully agree with some of his conclusions.

[jlt]

The only reason to 'harp' on this, as you say, would be - imho - if the Japanese use the term 'yose' in a certain way, and we just use the same term differently. Not sure it does any harm, does it? We aren't actually going to speak Japanese, so it's only a term, really.

"Yose" is a technical term, and I think that to avoid misunderstandings, any technical term should have an exact equivalent in any language.

Examples of technical terms: monocotyledon, diffeomorphism, buckminsterfullerene, grand canonical ensemble.

[Knotwilg]

Personally I appreciate very much John's effort to make us understand more about the Japanese culture and history related to our beloved game - even if I don't always fully agree with some of his conclusions.

John has an original voice with a deep insight into (Japanese) literature, the world of the professionals and the history of Go. We're fortunate to read his stories and thoughts on this forum. That should be repeated often.

If I summarize this thread I say: "boundary play (yose) typically occur near the late stage of the game (the endgame, which by definition starts when all groups are stable and boundary plays remain) but occasionally boundary plays happen earlier, when not all groups are stable yet". Or in other words "IF endgame THEN boundary play" but not "IF boundary play THEN endgame".

Likewise, the whole thickness/influence discussion to me boils down to "there is outward influence (=influence), and then there is outward influence with good (eye) shape or a base (=local thickness), and then there is a global cooperation of outward influence (=global thickness, Takemiya style), and then there's the accumulation of aji, which is some kind of tax on what may appear to be the score".

When I or others use go terms this way, using the Japanese word or the English translation, we often get: "no, there's much more to it". And I understand that every concrete instance of influence/thickness/... is different, but I haven't been able to enhance my conceptual understanding beyond above summary.

If there's more to it, I'd like to learn. Perhaps I've been too lazy to do so, by going through the reference material, and have been expecting something more succinct.

[RobertJasiek]

"Perhaps I've been too lazy to do so, by going through the reference material"

Indeed.

[Uberdude]

I remember when BigDoug banned me from KGS for explaining the difference between yose and endgame...

[Bill Spight]

The only reason to 'harp' on this, as you say, would be - imho - if the Japanese use the term 'yose' in a certain way, and we just use the same term differently. Not sure it does any harm, does it? We aren't actually going to speak Japanese, so it's only a term, really.

"Yose" is a technical term, and I think that to avoid misunderstandings, any technical term should have an exact equivalent in any language.

Examples of technical terms: monocotyledon, diffeomorphism, buckminsterfullerene, grand canonical ensemble.

The thing is, most go terms have been around long enough to have acquired informal, non-technical meanings, as well. Some terms, such as sente and gote, are mostly used informally. Others, such as eye, are not easy to define technically.

The Western adoption of yose to mean the endgame is no accident. The Japanese use yose informally as a synonym for the endgame. (Kenkyusha defines yose as the last moves in a go or shogi game. That is technically incorrect, but reflects informal usage.) John is right, OC, that you can play yose earlier than the endgame. But the term for endgame (終盤) is used much less in the Japanese literature than yose (ヨセ). A search on Amazon Japan for 終盤 turned up a handful of books, even one on the middle game, while a search for ヨセ turned up over 100 books.

In his Yose Dictionary (ヨセ辞典) Kano starts by addressing the question of how interesting yose is. His first paragraph starts out, "Fuseki is interesting." The next paragraph starts out, "The middle game is more interesting." The third paragraph starts out, "Yose is when the fighting is over." Informally Kano is using fuseki, middle game, and yose to indicate three stages of play, rather than 序盤、中盤、終盤. He also uses terms more technically, as required.

The informal usage of yose has been adopted into English. John makes an important contribution with the term, boundary play. There is no reason the two cannot coexist.