Interesting discussion, I checked it out myself with LZ and the variations seem more complex than I expected, I really didn't think the cutting stone would have so much life in it.
About my progress I don't have much to say, I made the decision to try and focus more when I play games, because I lost too many to blunders on OGS.
I also got my hands on some books about the fuseki a friend lend me, but I don't think I will use it to learn how to properly play in the early opening (I will just keep to pro games and Leela Zero for that), but it might be nice to use them as inspiration in tandem with LZ. So far I have kept my studying up, I slowed a bit down on the internetgoschool, but so far I've not missed a day of not somehow occupying myself with Go, and man so many games I either win or lose to do reading, so it is entirely worth doing tsumegos, it is in my opinion the most important skill of the game, thank god there are a lot of internet sources, else I could not study as much as I want.
When I checked the fuseki books out, I also got the feeling that old pro's tended to play a lot longer sequences on the side / centre, playing more moves on the sides / centre, when LZ really sometimes just wanted to leave the sequence earlier, to play another corner enclosure, or invade / approach an enemy corner. I wonder why old pro's thought these side / centre moves were better, when you can make territory most efficiently in the corner. That said they make a lot of mistakes according to LZ, but they're not big mistakes, still interesting to check out, especially when you compare them to modern top pro games, who now tend to be a lot more in agreement with AI.
I also have a few games on the backlog, that I still want to review and maybe upload here at some point.
Time wasting with Go
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DeprivedWaste
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Re: Time wasting with Go
how has your experience been with the internet go school? is it useful? do you think it's better than just doing problems from a book?
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DeprivedWaste
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Re: Time wasting with Go
I bought the training system without the video lectures, but I fear I can not yet answer your question. Because I started doing the Basics: Step-by-step first (of course not all problems, but just the ones were I was curious), it was good to consolidate the concepts due to the way the system is set up i.e. if you solve a problem wrong, you can choose to revisit it in 24 hours, instead of 48 hours for example. But I am sure you know that.
Anyways, I recently finished doing the basic problems, and have now started doing the problems that are listed under "Topics" for example a topic can be "All about Sente" or "Efficiency". But it is all still covered under "Basic Course", so until now I had no real trouble, but I feel more comfortable doing it this way, instead of jumping directly ahead, hoping it will improve my game even if I solve these problems easily.
Which is important to notice is, that often the Basic course problems don't cover optimal or the strongest response, because they're for beginners and are just made to teach the basic concepts of things, so if you already have a good understanding about these concepts they're less valuable.
The selection of other topics include Important Shapes (also very fundamental) the Opening, Middle Game (lessons under Middle Game include for example Sacrificing Stones, Direction of Play..) etc. and personally I am most interested in the Middle Game and the Endgame sections, because I feel the Opening and Joseki you can study more efficient by replaying pro games and helping yourself with LZ.
But like I said, I have not yet progressed that far so I can not state if it is useful, but I will jump over the Joseki and Opening sections.. so ask me again in a few weeks!
All in all, so far I think it can be a nice change from normal tsumego or tesuji, it is more about broad concepts and not really deep reading, with a few exceptions (but again I just finished the Basic course section a few days ago).
If you're looking to improve your reading, I would say doing problems from a book or website (like tsumego-hero) is better. Overall my experience has been positive.
How I most of the days start to study Go is replaying a pro game (only around the first 100 moves) and after that visiting the InternetGoSchool to review my problems (or the other way around) and finish it off with doing tsumego or tesuji problems, right now I am mostly focusing on tsumego-hero, so no tesuji problems. That said I also do tsumego sometimes when I am on the go, with a phone app, or on the laptop.
And I feel like doing these three things work together well like cogs in a machine and if I would remove one thing, the others would lose value too so they're all useful in some way to me. So out of everything I get something, but I wonder if I could replace for example the time I use on IGS with something else, that would even work better with the others, but I haven't found that yet. I might try out Yunguseng Dojang, or the Polgote School but I first wanted to do that, when I have reached a higher skill level.
Anyways, I hope that helps, even though I could not entirely answer your question.
Anyways, I recently finished doing the basic problems, and have now started doing the problems that are listed under "Topics" for example a topic can be "All about Sente" or "Efficiency". But it is all still covered under "Basic Course", so until now I had no real trouble, but I feel more comfortable doing it this way, instead of jumping directly ahead, hoping it will improve my game even if I solve these problems easily.
Which is important to notice is, that often the Basic course problems don't cover optimal or the strongest response, because they're for beginners and are just made to teach the basic concepts of things, so if you already have a good understanding about these concepts they're less valuable.
The selection of other topics include Important Shapes (also very fundamental) the Opening, Middle Game (lessons under Middle Game include for example Sacrificing Stones, Direction of Play..) etc. and personally I am most interested in the Middle Game and the Endgame sections, because I feel the Opening and Joseki you can study more efficient by replaying pro games and helping yourself with LZ.
But like I said, I have not yet progressed that far so I can not state if it is useful, but I will jump over the Joseki and Opening sections.. so ask me again in a few weeks!
All in all, so far I think it can be a nice change from normal tsumego or tesuji, it is more about broad concepts and not really deep reading, with a few exceptions (but again I just finished the Basic course section a few days ago).
If you're looking to improve your reading, I would say doing problems from a book or website (like tsumego-hero) is better. Overall my experience has been positive.
How I most of the days start to study Go is replaying a pro game (only around the first 100 moves) and after that visiting the InternetGoSchool to review my problems (or the other way around) and finish it off with doing tsumego or tesuji problems, right now I am mostly focusing on tsumego-hero, so no tesuji problems. That said I also do tsumego sometimes when I am on the go, with a phone app, or on the laptop.
And I feel like doing these three things work together well like cogs in a machine and if I would remove one thing, the others would lose value too so they're all useful in some way to me. So out of everything I get something, but I wonder if I could replace for example the time I use on IGS with something else, that would even work better with the others, but I haven't found that yet. I might try out Yunguseng Dojang, or the Polgote School but I first wanted to do that, when I have reached a higher skill level.
Anyways, I hope that helps, even though I could not entirely answer your question.
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Kirby
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Re: Time wasting with Go
Thanks, I think you answered my question well. I decided to try out the problem sets, myself. I'll see how it goes, too. I did 70 just now - looks like mostly joseki-type problems more than life and death, but maybe I need more exposure to those anyway.DeprivedWaste wrote:
Anyways, I hope that helps, even though I could not entirely answer your question.
But I like Guo Juan's site so far.
Anyway, good luck with your studies.
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DeprivedWaste
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Re: Time wasting with Go
I really enjoy spending part of my time on Go, it is such an intriguing game, and you never know what challenges awaits you in a new game, like a procedural dungeon in a videogame, you know the rules, but you don't know what layout or what monsters lurk in the dark.. a tricky fuseki? A challenging fight? A tight endgame? All of these together? I will I think, never really get bored of playing this game.
I played a lot of games the last few days, some lost to stupid blunders, some lost to lazy reading, others lost even though I gave it all, but most of all I had fun playing and were proud of a few. But I slacked on the reviewing, I just looked all of them over quickly with LZ, not spending a lot of time on each single one. So today I want to change that, and work through a few games on my backlog, and in the future I will try to adjust and spend more time on reviewing games. But reviewing is the only part I slacked of, still doing tsumego problems, replaying 100 moves of a pro game each day (really doesn't cost much time, but gives me so much back) and solving at least 100 IGS problems.
Really I have to break a lance (is that also a saying in english?) for replaying pro games, so often I got told it would be time not well spend for a beginner, and I should only do it if I have a lot of time left. But my own experience is quite the opposite, you spend so little time on replaying 100 moves (it rarely takes over 30 minutes) but get so much out of it, from whole board judgement to josekis and just a general feel for what the options are. So I recommend to everyone who might stumble upon this and ask themselves the question, just try it out or in the famous words of Shia Labeouf just do it. I understand of course, the people who said that I shouldn't, had experienced that they couldn't learn much from pro games at the level I was at, everyone learns different after all, trusting others is good, experimenting yourself is better!
So with these words in mind, here the first game played against a 2D on Fox Go and sadly lost because I was too lazy to read! It also includes a situation where white had a lot of weaknesses, and I had a hard time deciding which weaknesses to poke at, thank god for LZ.
Here a game against a 3K on KGS, where my opponent decides to build a moyo and I decide to invade after I had somewhat of a lead, of course it ends in disaster, because I have trouble with invading often times even feeling like a fraud when I manage an invasion, as if it was just a matter of luck, I of course want to learn how to deal with them.. I thought I would be able to review more games, but these took me already close to an hour, so I have to take a break for now.
If someone has suggestions on how to learn to be better at invading apart from replaying pro games and experimenting with Leela, please leave comments, maybe there are some good inspiring books on the subject matter?
Even though I lost, I am glad to have played these games (and now reviewed them closer), they showed me on what I need to work more. Later today I might review another game and look at a few sequences.
I played a lot of games the last few days, some lost to stupid blunders, some lost to lazy reading, others lost even though I gave it all, but most of all I had fun playing and were proud of a few. But I slacked on the reviewing, I just looked all of them over quickly with LZ, not spending a lot of time on each single one. So today I want to change that, and work through a few games on my backlog, and in the future I will try to adjust and spend more time on reviewing games. But reviewing is the only part I slacked of, still doing tsumego problems, replaying 100 moves of a pro game each day (really doesn't cost much time, but gives me so much back) and solving at least 100 IGS problems.
Really I have to break a lance (is that also a saying in english?) for replaying pro games, so often I got told it would be time not well spend for a beginner, and I should only do it if I have a lot of time left. But my own experience is quite the opposite, you spend so little time on replaying 100 moves (it rarely takes over 30 minutes) but get so much out of it, from whole board judgement to josekis and just a general feel for what the options are. So I recommend to everyone who might stumble upon this and ask themselves the question, just try it out or in the famous words of Shia Labeouf just do it. I understand of course, the people who said that I shouldn't, had experienced that they couldn't learn much from pro games at the level I was at, everyone learns different after all, trusting others is good, experimenting yourself is better!
So with these words in mind, here the first game played against a 2D on Fox Go and sadly lost because I was too lazy to read! It also includes a situation where white had a lot of weaknesses, and I had a hard time deciding which weaknesses to poke at, thank god for LZ.
Here a game against a 3K on KGS, where my opponent decides to build a moyo and I decide to invade after I had somewhat of a lead, of course it ends in disaster, because I have trouble with invading often times even feeling like a fraud when I manage an invasion, as if it was just a matter of luck, I of course want to learn how to deal with them.. I thought I would be able to review more games, but these took me already close to an hour, so I have to take a break for now.
If someone has suggestions on how to learn to be better at invading apart from replaying pro games and experimenting with Leela, please leave comments, maybe there are some good inspiring books on the subject matter?
Even though I lost, I am glad to have played these games (and now reviewed them closer), they showed me on what I need to work more. Later today I might review another game and look at a few sequences.
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DeprivedWaste
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Re: Time wasting with Go
I had no time this weekend to study Go, but I am back on track now (a lot of IGS problems in the backlog) and here are a few games I played today, and I added some thoughts with the help of LZ.
The first game was against a 2k KGS, his profile said he was also 2k in real life (I thought probably AGA or EGF) which made me nervous (I don't know why, I think I was thinking about the upcoming tournament) and I really struggled in the game due to some stupid overplays and moves, but in the end prevailed and won.
The second game I played on GoPanda and straight out lost against a 1k, I feel like I could have played much better and I need to focus more and not let it get to my head when I encounter something for me unusual, but just draw inspiration from the fundamentals or play creative.. but above all think! Instead of playing moves out of the blue like random bot
The last game I reviewed faster because I don't have a lot of time anymore, so there are fewer comments. It was against a 2D on FoxGo which I won, I feel pretty excited for the tournament and looking forward to some serious long games over the board.
I also finally solved a tsumego I had not been able to solve before the weekend, so yay for that,... for everyone curious:
The first game was against a 2k KGS, his profile said he was also 2k in real life (I thought probably AGA or EGF) which made me nervous (I don't know why, I think I was thinking about the upcoming tournament) and I really struggled in the game due to some stupid overplays and moves, but in the end prevailed and won.
The second game I played on GoPanda and straight out lost against a 1k, I feel like I could have played much better and I need to focus more and not let it get to my head when I encounter something for me unusual, but just draw inspiration from the fundamentals or play creative.. but above all think! Instead of playing moves out of the blue like random bot
The last game I reviewed faster because I don't have a lot of time anymore, so there are fewer comments. It was against a 2D on FoxGo which I won, I feel pretty excited for the tournament and looking forward to some serious long games over the board.
I also finally solved a tsumego I had not been able to solve before the weekend, so yay for that,... for everyone curious:
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DeprivedWaste
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Re: Time wasting with Go
A lot of things have happened, and I can already see that next week will become quite stressful too. Anyway I haven't posted here for around a week, so it is time! Sadly I didn't go to the tournament after all, but I've already set my sights on another tournament happening this month.
But still some changes in my studying regime, I joined OSR! Open Study Room, and now instead of only playing faster games online, I also play longer games against other OSR members (originally I planned to do that in preparation for the tournament that had happened this weekend, but it is actually quite fun in itself), and what a change that is, I lost a few games I could've won.. one where I was leading but didn't realize it and played too aggressively (I should count now that I have the time in these games, bad habit from faster games to not count), and lost a few more due to the unusual time settings and.. simply being outmatched! So I can already tell, OSR will be a good challenge for myself.
The game I am most proud of, is the one I recently played against a 1k, and lost, sadly I missed a corner sequence, despite the fact that I did make a mental note in-game that I should look at it closer.. but I forgot.
Still it was an exciting game, where white build a framework in the centre, and I as black thought I could easily take more territory and then reduce whites influence enough to win. LZ already showed me a few obvious paths I could've taken to make it even easier..
Some positions I found interesting
How to reduce white?
Leela recommends (apart from other alternatives) this move.. I have a hard time even with LZ continuations to see how it could work, maybe I didn't let LZ run with enough playouts.
My opponent stated that the marked move (a) could've worked, I am not quite sure what he meant, maybe some sequence where at some point black A14 (b) could've forced white to place an extra stone inside his territory? Maybe I am missing something obvious, we were both in byo-yomi after all.
But still some changes in my studying regime, I joined OSR! Open Study Room, and now instead of only playing faster games online, I also play longer games against other OSR members (originally I planned to do that in preparation for the tournament that had happened this weekend, but it is actually quite fun in itself), and what a change that is, I lost a few games I could've won.. one where I was leading but didn't realize it and played too aggressively (I should count now that I have the time in these games, bad habit from faster games to not count), and lost a few more due to the unusual time settings and.. simply being outmatched! So I can already tell, OSR will be a good challenge for myself.
The game I am most proud of, is the one I recently played against a 1k, and lost, sadly I missed a corner sequence, despite the fact that I did make a mental note in-game that I should look at it closer.. but I forgot.
Still it was an exciting game, where white build a framework in the centre, and I as black thought I could easily take more territory and then reduce whites influence enough to win. LZ already showed me a few obvious paths I could've taken to make it even easier..
Some positions I found interesting
How to reduce white?
Leela recommends (apart from other alternatives) this move.. I have a hard time even with LZ continuations to see how it could work, maybe I didn't let LZ run with enough playouts.
My opponent stated that the marked move (a) could've worked, I am not quite sure what he meant, maybe some sequence where at some point black A14 (b) could've forced white to place an extra stone inside his territory? Maybe I am missing something obvious, we were both in byo-yomi after all.
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Kirby
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Re: Time wasting with Go
After he plays here in the game:
It looks like there is some aji, but I don't see a 100% path, yet.
In particular, these order comes to mind: Looks dangerous! But I only see a working path if black's extension here is sente against the 3 stones on the left.: If white answers, it looks nice: But I don't have a clear picture of what happens if white doesn't answer: There is certainly aji, but I don't know what the exact path is after this.
Maybe trying for some sort of benefit down in the bottom left?
At least it seems fun..
In particular, these order comes to mind: Looks dangerous! But I only see a working path if black's extension here is sente against the 3 stones on the left.: If white answers, it looks nice: But I don't have a clear picture of what happens if white doesn't answer: There is certainly aji, but I don't know what the exact path is after this.
Maybe trying for some sort of benefit down in the bottom left?
At least it seems fun..
be immersed