is not on AlphaGo Teach either.AlphaGo thinks that "a" has 46.8% winrate.
This 'n' that
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Tryss
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Re: This 'n' that
Elf is bad for reviewing games.
With 30k+ playouts (but the result is the same with much less) Katago think is a -0.4% winrate drop compared to a, (or a loss of 0.2pts), meaning it's purely stylistic
With 30k+ playouts (but the result is the same with much less) Katago think
is a -0.4% winrate drop compared to a, (or a loss of 0.2pts), meaning it's purely stylistic-
Bill Spight
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Re: This 'n' that
Maybe so. But the problems with Elf are the same as with other bots, if perhaps more extreme. Elf has strong preferences and we are more certain that its preference reflects its style that that it indicates an error. But that is so for every top bot I know of. It's just that their preferences may not be so strong.Tryss wrote:Elf is bad for reviewing games.
With 30k+ playouts (but the result is the same with much less) Katago think
As jlt has noted, AlphaGoTeach also prefers a as its top choice, and does not report
as an alternative. Let's take a look.It shows four possibilities, none including
, in order of preference a - d. It winrate estimates are a - 46.8%, b - 45.5%, c - 45.3%, d - 45.0%. If we believe that these differences are a matter of style, then we want a winrate difference (near 50%) of more than 1.8% to think that it indicates an error.But is it just a matter of style? Each top bot has its own developmental path dependency. How many of them pick a as its top choice? Does KataGo have a different top choice? If not, then that's three so far.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Bki
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Re: This 'n' that
What's interesting here is that all the bots seems to favor some kind of approach moves. If the difference between the evaluation was due to noise, you would expect that one bot might rank the enclosures (any of them) higher. But it doesn't, which suggest that while it can't be called a mistake, enclosing a corner might indeed be inferior in this position.
Does elf refusal to even consider the large knight move enclosure a matter of "style"? Or is this because in such a position this move is dominated by another move (i.e. at best equal) and so is never worth exploring?
Does elf refusal to even consider the large knight move enclosure a matter of "style"? Or is this because in such a position this move is dominated by another move (i.e. at best equal) and so is never worth exploring?
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Bill Spight
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Re: This 'n' that
My meeting with Takemiya
In the 1970s I spent one summer in Japan and made the cusp of 3 dan. For a few weeks I won every game as 2 dan but lost every game as 3 dan.
The last weekend before coming back to the US I went to a go weekend at a resort. The highlight on the last day was a game between Takagawa and Takemiya. Ishida Yoshio gave the running commentary. There was time to kill while the players got several moves ahead. Ishida warmed up the room. He was very good at it. (If you don't know, he is also a professional jazz guitarist. He used to perform solo at jazz coffee shops and kissaten in Tokyo.) At one point he asked who had come the farthest to be there. I raised my hand, which got a big laugh from the audience. "So it seems," said Ishida, and then said, "No, really. Who came the farthest to be here?" I was not amused.
Afterwards a doctor who was a 5 dan invited a couple of us to come to his rooms (rich guy!) that evening after his private teaching game with Takemiya. The doctor's wife met the two of us at the door. She was a very smiley and gracious roly-poly woman. After the four men were seated around a small table she retreated to what I supposed was the bedroom. Takemiya was very friendly. The conversation covered a lot of topics, including the practice of rich Turkish women in Istanbul cruising the streets looking for attractive young men to invite into their limosines. It turned out that Takemiya had arrived the night before and spent the evening in the resort's game room, which had a billiards table, but nobody else played billiards. If I had only known about that room, I might have played billiards with Takemiya! (Not that I am any good at billiards.) After almost two hours there was a lull in the conversation. At that point the adjoining door slid open and the doctor's wife appeared with a tray of fresh, hot tea and munchies. She earned my admiration. Whatever you may think about the paternalistic Japanese culture of the time and her apparent subservience, she was obviously on the ball.
In the 1970s I spent one summer in Japan and made the cusp of 3 dan. For a few weeks I won every game as 2 dan but lost every game as 3 dan.
The last weekend before coming back to the US I went to a go weekend at a resort. The highlight on the last day was a game between Takagawa and Takemiya. Ishida Yoshio gave the running commentary. There was time to kill while the players got several moves ahead. Ishida warmed up the room. He was very good at it. (If you don't know, he is also a professional jazz guitarist. He used to perform solo at jazz coffee shops and kissaten in Tokyo.) At one point he asked who had come the farthest to be there. I raised my hand, which got a big laugh from the audience. "So it seems," said Ishida, and then said, "No, really. Who came the farthest to be here?" I was not amused.Afterwards a doctor who was a 5 dan invited a couple of us to come to his rooms (rich guy!) that evening after his private teaching game with Takemiya. The doctor's wife met the two of us at the door. She was a very smiley and gracious roly-poly woman. After the four men were seated around a small table she retreated to what I supposed was the bedroom. Takemiya was very friendly. The conversation covered a lot of topics, including the practice of rich Turkish women in Istanbul cruising the streets looking for attractive young men to invite into their limosines. It turned out that Takemiya had arrived the night before and spent the evening in the resort's game room, which had a billiards table, but nobody else played billiards. If I had only known about that room, I might have played billiards with Takemiya! (Not that I am any good at billiards.) After almost two hours there was a lull in the conversation. At that point the adjoining door slid open and the doctor's wife appeared with a tray of fresh, hot tea and munchies. She earned my admiration. Whatever you may think about the paternalistic Japanese culture of the time and her apparent subservience, she was obviously on the ball.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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EdLee
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Bill Spight
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Re:
No idea.EdLee wrote:Hi Bill,
Do you happen to know how's Mrs. Takemiya these days?
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
-
Bill Spight
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Re: This 'n' that
A discussion of the opening of a game between Hattori Inshuku (W) and Yamamoto Genkichi on March 29, 1801 (GoGoD 1801-03-29a), based upon ELf's commentary. OC, it was a no komi game by territory scoring, so Elf's evaluation will be off for the actual conditions.
Hattori is the author of the handicap go classic, Okigo Jizai.
and 
had been popular for over a century, but are minor errors, according to Elf. Either may be OK sans komi, OC. and 
are also minor mistakes, as is 
.
- 
are joseki. 
seems natural, but does not appear in Waltheri.
and 
push through. Then 
and 
confine White to the corner.
encloses the top right corner. Then 
- 
play a joseki that is popular with the bots.
at 18 is joseki, but Elf regards it as a minor error and prefers the 3-3, claiming the corner and sandwiching White between the corner and the 
stone. does not appear in Waltheri.
Interesting how the play pingpongs back and forth between the bottom left corner and the rest of the board. - is a nice flow of the stones.
More later.
Hattori is the author of the handicap go classic, Okigo Jizai.
and had been popular for over a century, but are minor errors, according to Elf. Either may be OK sans komi, OC. and are also minor mistakes, as is . - are joseki. seems natural, but does not appear in Waltheri. and push through. Then and confine White to the corner. encloses the top right corner. Then - play a joseki that is popular with the bots. at 18 is joseki, but Elf regards it as a minor error and prefers the 3-3, claiming the corner and sandwiching White between the corner and the stone. does not appear in Waltheri.Interesting how the play pingpongs back and forth between the bottom left corner and the rest of the board.
- is a nice flow of the stones.More later.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Bill Spight
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Re: This 'n' that
Sorry to have kept you waiting. Here is the next diagram.
This was, and has been, joseki, but Elf sees a couple of mistakes. It says that is a serious error. (I am classifying Elf's errors as minor errors, serious errors, and blunders, mainly by guesswork.) It loses 11½% to par, in Elf's estimation, because it does not play the sente, .
White plays the sente at. Then and 
occupy the open corners. OC, at the time the 4-4 plays were out of favor, not to make a comeback until late in the 19th century. Then White comes back to the push, . The point is that if Black later plays at a and then b, White c - e makes life in the corner.
Elf says that
in the game loses 21% to par, placing it in blunder territory, I think. Black should take advantage of White's error.
As White does not have a forcing play against, he has to scramble a bit. After Black puts up a stout resistance. is tesuji.
OC, if Black plays atari on
and 
, White will atari at a. This is a good result for Black.
More to come.
This was, and has been, joseki, but Elf sees a couple of mistakes. It says that
is a serious error. (I am classifying Elf's errors as minor errors, serious errors, and blunders, mainly by guesswork.) It loses 11½% to par, in Elf's estimation, because it does not play the sente, .White plays the sente at
. Then and occupy the open corners. OC, at the time the 4-4 plays were out of favor, not to make a comeback until late in the 19th century. Then White comes back to the push, . The point is that if Black later plays at a and then b, White c - e makes life in the corner.Elf says that
in the game loses 21% to par, placing it in blunder territory, I think. Black should take advantage of White's error.As White does not have a forcing play against
, he has to scramble a bit. After Black puts up a stout resistance. is tesuji.OC, if Black plays atari on
and , White will atari at a. This is a good result for Black. More to come.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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John Fairbairn
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Re: This 'n' that
Bill
A bit of clarification, please. You say the nobi W12 loses 11.5% under Dobby the Elf. Princess Leela, however, says the win rate between that and atari only falls 3.5% (16k playouts).
I think you've said before that Dobby's numbers are consistently on the high side.
So do we assume all Dobby's numbers are three to four times higher than Leela's? Or do we have to say "apples and pears" - Dobby is so much stronger than Leela that a comparison is a bit futile?
A bit of clarification, please. You say the nobi W12 loses 11.5% under Dobby the Elf. Princess Leela, however, says the win rate between that and atari only falls 3.5% (16k playouts).
I think you've said before that Dobby's numbers are consistently on the high side.
So do we assume all Dobby's numbers are three to four times higher than Leela's? Or do we have to say "apples and pears" - Dobby is so much stronger than Leela that a comparison is a bit futile?
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Bill Spight
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Re: This 'n' that
Are you making both plays by hand?John Fairbairn wrote:Bill
A bit of clarification, please. You say the nobi W12 loses 11.5% under Dobby the Elf. Princess Leela, however, says the win rate between that and atari only falls 3.5% (16k playouts).
I think you've said before that Dobby's numbers are consistently on the high side.
So do we assume all Dobby's numbers are three to four times higher than Leela's? Or do we have to say "apples and pears" - Dobby is so much stronger than Leela that a comparison is a bit futile?
as an atari and as a nobi? If not, doing so may give you a larger difference with LZ. I can't say anything about the comparative strengths of the programs. My guess is that in this range Elf may give a difference twice as large as LZ. I'm happy if they prefer the same play, when the Elf differenece is more than 5%. Edit: If you are not used to doing comparisons this way, what you should see is the winrate estimate for
in each case.The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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lightvector
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Re: This 'n' that
(I'm not quite sure of the connotation you're trying to communicate by calling them weird namesJohn Fairbairn wrote:Bill
A bit of clarification, please. You say the nobi W12 loses 11.5% under Dobby the Elf. Princess Leela, however, says the win rate between that and atari only falls 3.5% (16k playouts).
I think you've said before that Dobby's numbers are consistently on the high side.
So do we assume all Dobby's numbers are three to four times higher than Leela's? Or do we have to say "apples and pears" - Dobby is so much stronger than Leela that a comparison is a bit futile?
so maybe I'm misunderstanding something but... ) Leela Zero (with latest 40-block networks) is quite a bit stronger than ELF. Definitely stronger at equal visits, probably stronger at equal time, unless you're using very small numbers of playouts or something is unusual about your hardware. And this is even while being less opinionated about opening moves, in the sense of giving less extreme winrates for them.