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Offline gaius
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #361 Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:41 am 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Locally, right around :b77:, white is stronger. Playing a contact move here seems unduly defensive.
White's move below is better shape, and follows the proverb of not strengthening a weak stone with a contact move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm77 My prediction
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . 1 . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . 2 . , O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I would say your move is the one that's weak... For one thing, black occupies the vital point of whites marked kosumi. He can still connect - and if he does, there is now also nasty cutting aji left for white (depending on the ladder, see variation). Black's stone is not weak, it can easily connect out anyway; therefore, there's no harm in touching it. I'm afraid I agree with MW here.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm77 My prediction
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 1 . . 7 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X @ . # . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . @ 3 6 O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O 4 5 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #362 Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:16 am 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm77 My prediction
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . 1 . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . 2 . , O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

what kind of move is that???
can you not see that is a kyuish move?
sometimes you amaze me with your thought.

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #363 Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:09 am 
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I also don't like Joaz' move at all. It's one thing if it keeps Black disconnected - if it doesn't, what's the point?

Not completely sure about magicwand's alternative, but I do like its flow and the ability to treat either F15 and F16 or G17 lightly if required.
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Offline dfan
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #364 Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:51 am 
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Magicwand wrote:
what kind of move is that???
can you not see that is a kyuish move?

It's probably the move I would have played, so maybe that proves Magicwand's point. :)
Let's keep things polite, though. I don't want anybody to be dissuaded from posting their opinion. This is a discussion, not a contest.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm78 ACTUAL GAME: Move 78. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . 1 , O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #365 Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:33 am 
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Dusk Eagle wrote:
How is :b77: a weak stone? It can very easily connect to the strong black group.


It can be disconnected by white at any time.

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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #366 Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:47 am 
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Maybe something like this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm79 guess: Move 78. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O 4 X 1 2 . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 6 . O , O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Jedo
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #367 Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:40 am 
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Does black really gain that much from crawling on the second line like that and letting white settle though?

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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #368 Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:44 am 
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Jedo wrote:
Does black really gain that much from crawling on the second line like that and letting white settle though?


Well, it reduces in sente and still leave cutting points. Whether or not that's sufficient is above my pay grade.

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Offline ethanb
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #369 Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:12 pm 
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emeraldemon wrote:
Maybe something like this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm79 guess: Move 78. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O 4 X 1 2 . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 6 . O , O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Like your 79, but 81 could be better.



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm79 guess: Move 79. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O 3 X 1 2 . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 4 . O 6 O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The last white move might be too slow, but he almost certainly won't just make an eye in gote.


Note that he can't resist by descending:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm79 guess: Move 79. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 4 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O 3 X 1 2 . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 5 . O . O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


He can get thickness, but since he can also get it without sacrificing three stones, I don't think this will happen.

Since white has so many problems after this black 81, I feel like the straight down block at 80 is almost unviable. White may respond by jumping out to make shape and reduce the center instead. Or he may disconnect at the top with 80 and push on the invasion to gain strength to reduce the center. This is probably a better strategy.
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Offline dfan
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #370 Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:01 pm 
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I guess I should really give the komi, since people are starting to do some counting. It's a Japanese game from 1982, so I guess the komi must be 5.5?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm79 ACTUAL GAME: Move 79. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O 1 X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . O , O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline xed_over
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #371 Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 3:20 pm 
Oza

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dfan wrote:
My rule is, if two dan players have commented, I can go on to the next move. Let this be an incentive to get your predictions in early!


yeah, but you still gotta give them time to finish their argument :)
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Offline dfan
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #372 Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 6:41 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm80 ACTUAL GAME: Move 80. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . O , O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #373 Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:58 am 
Judan
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Jedo wrote:
Does black really gain that much from crawling on the second line like that and letting white settle though?


That is a very good question. I've been wondering much the same myself. Now, with his latest move - tenukiing to the right side - white seems to agree with you.

Black's attack seems to be trying to encircle from the north and south, yet white just runs eastward. I expected black to attack from the east, using his strong western group as an anvil.

This still feels like it was the right direction:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm76 My prediction
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , 1 . 2 . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline DIV
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #374 Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 7:07 pm 
Dies with sente
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seems like black really need to break into the white influenced area around N14. i would probably want to play around there, since there is black below and above to the right. Gaining some space there can quickly give him strength toward the right or upper left, a little lower and strength toward the bottom. I don't know if that's right this move, but I'd want to get in there sooner than later, that's my intuition.
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Offline dfan
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #375 Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 7:43 pm 
Gosei

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm81 ACTUAL GAME: Move 81. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . O , O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #376 Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:27 pm 
Tengen
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it doesnt look good for white.
now i guess it is urgent to reduce the black influence in the middle.
white has played sume questionable moves in my opinion (marked below) and is down by enough points to lose easily.
i think it will be easy win for black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm81: Move 81. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X W . . O , W . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . W . . . . . . . . 2 . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline gaius
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #377 Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:37 am 
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Magicwand wrote:
i think it will be easy win for black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm81: Move 81. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X W . . O , W . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . W . . . . . . . . 2 . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hmmm... Let's do a detailed count... I, too, like your proposed move for white, and according to my count, black would still have to make some cash in the center to walk away with a win:

Black
30 points at the top left (including two captures)
12 points at the top right
15 solid points on the bottom
total: 57 + center potential

White:
30 points at the right side
30 points at the bottom left
5.5 komi
total: 65.5 + some potential on the right side, minus the fact that his group on the left isn't really alive yet.

So is black's center potential worth 9 points more than white's right side potential? Maybe - also, it will be black's move now. He still has to stay active though; I'd like to play something like this to wrap up the game, but I think it'll be too slow:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm81: Too slow?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . O , O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . 0 . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . 5 4 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . 7 3 2 . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 9 6 8 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #378 Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:57 am 
Judan
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gaius wrote:
Magicwand wrote:
i think it will be easy win for black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm81: Move 81. Points from prisoners: B 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X W . . O , W . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . W . . . . . . . . 2 . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hmmm... Let's do a detailed count... I, too, like your proposed move for white, and according to my count, black would still have to make some cash in the center to walk away with a win:

Black
30 points at the top left (including two captures)
12 points at the top right
15 solid points on the bottom
total: 57 + center potential

White:
30 points at the right side
30 points at the bottom left
5.5 komi
total: 65.5 + some potential on the right side, minus the fact that his group on the left isn't really alive yet.

So is black's center potential worth 9 points more than white's right side potential? Maybe - also, it will be black's move now. He still has to stay active though; I'd like to play something like this to wrap up the game, but I think it'll be too slow:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm81: Too slow?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . O , O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . 0 . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . 5 4 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . 7 3 2 . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 9 6 8 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If the game were purely about points now, I'd agree with MW's move and probably Gaius' count and continuation. But the count above seems to be missing something: black has a group that isn't fully alive either. And the sequence shown in the last diagram above solves this problem for black.

Furthermore, there is some unpleasant aji at 'a', which allows black to take F6 and G6 in sente:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm81:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . O , O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . 0 . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . 5 4 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . 7 3 2 . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 9 6 8 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . C C 1 . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O a O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This makes life too easy for black. He can use his eyeless group as one border for making territory. White should keep up the pressure.

Several moves ago, someone - maybe Mitsun? - suggested a response of white G7 to black's H6 (Thanks, Terr). I'd like ressurect that now:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm81 My corrected prediction
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . O , O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 2 C . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O a O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It counters the aji at 'a', it makes the white stone at E8 look sensible, and it threatens to push east with G7. We were wondering why white would play E8. It looked like aji-keshi. It only makes sense if white follows it up with something like G7.

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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #379 Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:10 am 
Gosei
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Several moves ago, someone - maybe Mitsun? - suggested a response of white G8 to black's H7. I'd like ressurect it now:...


The move you show on the board isn't G8, it's G7. Not entirely positive which you intended.

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Offline gaius
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #380 Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:31 am 
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That seems to be a sensible idea, BUT:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm81: ... it's just keshi-ing the aji
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . O , O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O a O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

83 connects, and there's nothing white can do. The cut doesn't work, due to the exact same aji at a that you mentioned. By the way, the exchange at 'a' really is black's sente. If the pro playing black would've been afraid of white taking it away, he would have played it out first - he had time for it. I don't think white has a cut here, and given that black didn't play there either, we can assume that it's an aji keshi area right now :).

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