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 Post subject: Re: Physics puzzles - mosquito meets train
Post #21 Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:19 am 
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Tommie wrote:
viii) hence speed v of both train and insect must have been zero at one moment?.


why hence?
I don't understand the meaning of =? in (vi)

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Post #22 Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:47 am 
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mosquito meets train:
Tommie wrote:
The question:
As i) the law is an axiom, hence must be true,

It's not an axiom in the mathematical sense, so no, that argument alone is not a reason to just state it is true.
It's a physical law, and as such it's just a theory. But it has been confirmed by a lot of experiments, so lets assume for the moment it's true ;)

Tommie wrote:
ii) the weight of neither heavy freight train nor tiny insect did change,
iii) speed of insect, above ground was initially about zero,
iv) speed of insect afterwards is = speed of train,

Afterwards, the speed of the insect = the *new* speed of the train = the former speed of the train - some tiny value (ignoring friction and engine forces).

Tommie wrote:
v) there was a time that insect had the speed zero
vi) then momentum = m(insect) x (speed = 0) = 0 =? momentum(train) is zero too?

The momentum of the insect is zero, yes. But you always have to look at the momentum of the whole system. Momentum must be preserved, but it can be transferred from one object to another.
momentum_before = m(insect) x (speed(insect)=0) + m(train) x speed(train) = m(train) x speed(train)
That's the initial momentum of the whole system.

Tommie wrote:
vii) there is a first moment that insect & train have the same speed,
viii) hence speed v of both train and insect must have been zero at one moment?.

momentum_afterwards = m(insect) x speed(after) + m(train) x speed(after) = (m(insect)+m(train)) x speed(after) = m(train) x speed(train)
speed(after) = speed(train) x m(train) / (m(insect)+m(train))

So speed(after) is lower than speed(train) and higher than speed(insect)=0 (assuming m(insect) is finite and >0). The speed of any object must be continuous, because only finite acceleration is possible. And there is no force present that accelerates the train, so the curve of speed over time is monotonous. That means the speed of the train at any time is between speed(train) and speed(insect). Therefore, it is at no time equal 0.

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 Post subject: Re: Physics puzzles
Post #23 Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:20 am 
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SpongeBob wrote:
cyclops, I liked your reasoning with the pressure, nice.

thx

SpongeBob wrote:
You have a ramp and you have two identical cans of soda. If you let both cans roll down the ramp, they will arive at the bottom of the ramp at the same time. Now if you shake one of the cans directly before the experiment, one of them will be faster than the other. Which one is it and why?
And if you do not believe that: try it out!


Lets assume only frictional loss from the inside. Because the fluid surface tries to remain horizontal the shaken can will have internal friction all the time resulting in a maximum speed.
In the unshaken can the fluid's rotation follows the can's rotation and the acceleration goes on forever. So the unshaken can wins in the end.

Another point of view: In the shaken can, because of the drag the gas will get concentrated in the forward direction pushing the center of gravity backwards thus reducing gravity's torque around the turning point/line ( the point/line where ramp and can touch ). Hence less acceleration.

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 Post subject: Re: Physics puzzles - mosquito meets train
Post #24 Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:24 am 
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cyclops wrote:
Tommie wrote:
viii) hence speed v of both train and insect must have been zero at one moment?.

why hence?
I don't understand the meaning of =? in (vi)


The meaning of the question mark ? is its basic one,
e.g. transforming an affirmative statement into a question of the type:
This statement, is it true?
I do not know how else to express this in a mathematical formula.

If speed = zero,
then the product of anything times zero must also be = zero

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Last edited by Tommie on Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Physics puzzles - mosquito meets train
Post #25 Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:54 am 
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Tommie wrote:
cyclops wrote:
Tommie wrote:
viii) hence speed v of both train and insect must have been zero at one moment?.

why hence?
I don't understand the meaning of =? in (vi)


If speed = zero,
then the product of anything times zero must also be = zero


Shouldn't this be in the "Trolling in field of study" thread? :)

Even disregarding flOvermind's (correct, I believe) argument from conservation of momentum, there is also the point that the collision with the insect is partly elastic. I didn't see you mention "a spherical mosquito of uniform density" but you did say that it squished. Therefore the transfer of kinetic energy actually took place over time, not in a single instant. So zero wasn't a factor anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Physics puzzles
Post #26 Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:05 am 
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SpongeBob wrote:
cyclops, I liked your reasoning with the pressure, nice.

Well, it seems my first puzzle was not difficult enough for a smart croud like the one here on L19. Watch out: this one is REALLY cool, but also hard to figure out:

You have a ramp and you have two identical cans of soda. If you let both cans roll down the ramp, they will arive at the bottom of the ramp at the same time. Now if you shake one of the cans directly before the experiment, one of them will be faster than the other. Which one is it and why?
And if you do not believe that: try it out!


The increased pressure inside the can blows it up a bit. In order to change the turning speed, which is required for rolling down a ramp, you need to apply torque, and that is proportional to the radius. You thus need more force to get the bigger can turning, which means that less force is available for acceleration downwards. The blown-up can therefore is slower in accelerating and arrives later at the bottom.

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 Post subject: Re: Physics puzzles - mosquito meets train
Post #27 Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:10 am 
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flOvermind wrote:
mosquito meets train:
[hide]
flOvermind wrote:
Tommie wrote:
The question:
As i) the law is an axiom, hence must be true,

It's not an axiom in the mathematical sense, so no, that argument alone is not a reason to just state it is true.
It's a physical law, and as such it's just a theory. But it has been confirmed by a lot of experiments, so lets assume for the moment it's true ;)

I am not a physicist and just wanted to provide the formula of the law.
A bit of the introduction is to mislead non-physicist like myself.
(...)

flOvermind wrote:
[hide]
Tommie wrote:
v) there was a time that insect had the speed zero
vi) then momentum = m(insect) x (speed = 0) = 0 =? momentum(train) is zero too?


flOvermind wrote:
The momentum of the insect is zero, yes. But you always have to look at the momentum of the whole system. Momentum must be preserved, but it can be transferred from one object to another.
momentum_before = m(insect) x (speed(insect)=0) + m(train) x speed(train) = m(train) x speed(train)
That's the initial momentum of the whole system.


Tommie wrote:
vii) there is a first moment that insect & train have the same speed,
viii) hence speed v of both train and insect must have been zero at one moment?.

flOvermind wrote:
momentum_afterwards = m(insect) x speed(after) + m(train) x speed(after) = (m(insect)+m(train)) x speed(after) = m(train) x speed(train)
speed(after) = speed(train) x m(train) / (m(insect)+m(train))

So speed(after) is lower than speed(train) and higher than speed(insect)=0 (assuming m(insect) is finite and >0). The speed of any object must be continuous, because only finite acceleration is possible.
[b]i)
And there is no force present that accelerates the train,[/b] so the curve of speed over time is monotonous.
ii) That means the speed of the train at any time is between speed(train) and speed(insect).
iii) Therefore, it is at no time equal 0.



[b]i) If the train is becoming slower (perhaps to zero?) as I and you suggest,
then the train undergoes negative acceleration.[/b]
What does the 'monotonus' mean & imply?

ii) Is it, can it be zero, e.g. for the tiniest moment?

iii) Why Therefore,? If speed of insect = zero before contact,
then it can be zero because of ii), thus iii) is not true , thus no validity for Therefore,.


Gosh, the hide & quote level labels are difficult to postion!
EDITed problem a tiny bit, insofar that insect flies into the direction of the train

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 Post subject: Re: Physics puzzles - mosquito meets train
Post #28 Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:28 am 
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Tommie wrote:
Gosh, the hide & quote level labels are difficult to postion!
EDITed problem a tiny bit, insofar that insect flies into the direction of the train


Hehe... I think I know where you're getting at.

Starting out from my equations, we get that the insect accelerates from a negative velocity to a positive velocity, so obviously at some point after the collision it has to have velocity 0. The train decelerates from a large positive velocity to a slightly smaller positive velocity, so at no point it reaches zero. That's a direct consequence of the law of conservation of momentum.

The apparent paradox is that from the point on when they collide, they should have the same velocity. So how can it be that the insect will have 0 velocity at some point after the collision, but the train not?
The problem here is that it's not really correct that both have the same velocity. Their velocities will approach each other, but not instantly, because of deformation of the colliding bodies.

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Post #29 Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:42 am 
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ethanb wrote:

Shouldn't this be in the "Trolling in field of study" thread? :)

Even disregarding flOvermind's (correct, I believe) argument from conservation of momentum, there is also the point that the collision with the insect is partly elastic. I didn't see you mention "a spherical mosquito of uniform density" but you did say that it squished. Therefore the transfer of kinetic energy actually took place over time, not in a single instant. So zero wasn't a factor anyway.


Providing a puzzle implies that some know the answer beforehand, others afterwards.
Being invited to provide and to solve puzzles is thus voluntarily 'trolling' from both sides, active and passive, yes.
It is thus an action enjoyed by all participants, I hope.
If we were physicists and knew all the answers ... but we are not.

From your statement I guess that you want to answers my question with 'No' , is that correct?

Flowovermind is the first one to state
Quote:
That's the initial momentum of the whole system.
.

You are the first one to mention
Quote:
partly elastic
.

Now also flowovermind mentioned 'deformation'.

The bold terms in your comment above 'spherical', 'uniform density' - what do they have to do with the answer?

Why 'Therefore'?
Quote:
Therefore the transfer of kinetic energy actually took place over time, not in a single instant.

If it could have happened in a single instant, would then the train stand still?

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Last edited by Tommie on Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #30 Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:50 am 
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flOvermind wrote:
Starting out from my equations, we get that the insect accelerates from a negative velocity to a positive velocity, so obviously at some point after the collision it has to have velocity 0. The train decelerates from a large positive velocity to a slightly smaller positive velocity, so at no point it reaches zero. That's a direct consequence of the law of conservation of momentum.

The apparent paradox is that from the point on when they collide, they should have the same velocity. So how can it be that the insect will have 0 velocity at some point after the collision, but the train not?
The problem here is that it's not really correct that both have the same velocity. Their velocities will approach each other, but not instantly, because of deformation of the colliding bodies.



At the time when they are approaching zero speed difference,
the energy transfer by the momentum of the insect will also be approaching zero.
I think that's the answer. I'm not a physicist myself and heard this problem from a informatician 10 years ago, hence for me it was quite an honest puzzle.

It could be called Zeno and the Mosquito but this would probably give something away already.

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Post #31 Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:32 pm 
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Mosquito meets train:

The solution has been given correctly a few times already, but maybe a little graph will make it clear that the mosquito does stop momentarily, while the train does not. The elasticity of the collision affects the sharpness of the velocity changes, but not the basic structure.

Horizontal axis = time
Vertical axis = velocity (positive in direction of train)

Giant mosquito meets toy train:

train
------------|
        |
        |---------- train + mosquito
        |
        |
        |
0 ---------------------- zero velocity
        |
mosquito |
------------|

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Post #32 Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:34 pm 
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Soda ramp problem in another form:
How can you tell a raw egg from a hard-boiled egg, without breaking the egg?

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Post #33 Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:44 pm 
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O.k., nobel prize for experimental physics goes to Dusk Eagle, nobel prize for theoretical physics goes to Harleqin.

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Post #34 Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:55 pm 
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HermanHiddema wrote:
The title "Physics puzzles" reminded me of this one:

Image

from xkcd :)


13/18 Ohm is my answer apart from miscalculations. ;-)

Here is my reasoning:
Get your infinite go-board and choose Tengen. For each point p define n(p) as the (least) number of steps to get to Tengen. Define a potential V(p) = 3^-n(p). Check that at each p ( apart from Tengen ) the potential is equal to the average at its neighbours and that the potential drops to zero far away. Apart from Tengen for each point the net incoming current equals the net outgoing current. We have a solution for the case that one of Herman's points is kept at 1 Volt and infinity at 0 Volt.
Herman's other point will turn out to be at 1/27 Volt. Tengen's neighbourpoints will be at 1/3 V each. They will receive (1 - 1/3)/1 Ampere each from Tengen. In total Tengen radiates 8/3 Ampere. Next get your other infinite goboard out of your cupboard and choose Tengen again and put it at -1 Volt keeping infinity at zero. Next make a sandwich of them but choose the Tengens not to coincide but to correspond with Herman's points. Now we add the potentials. The first Tengen will be at 1 - 1/27 Volt = 26/27 Volt. The other at -26/27 Volt. A potentialdifference of 52/27 V. It (still) gives rise to a current of 8/3 Ampere. ( check yourself ) The resistence is (52/27)/(8/3) = 13/18 Ohm.

Pooh


Problem for Herman: Next 3 dimensions?

edit: nice try but wrong. First assertion only true at both axes.

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Post #35 Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:19 am 
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mitsun wrote:
Mosquito meets train:

The solution has been given correctly a few times already, but maybe a little graph will make it clear that the mosquito does stop momentarily, while the train does not. The elasticity of the collision affects the sharpness of the velocity changes, but not the basic structure.

Horizontal axis = time
Vertical axis = velocity (positive in direction of train)

Giant mosquito meets toy train:

train
------------|
        |
        |---------- train + mosquito
        |
        |
        |
0 ---------------------- zero velocity
        |
mosquito |
------------|


Your idea with the graph is nice, Mitsun.

I just realize how many assumptions we do (automatically), without reflecting a bit
and checking with reality.
Did we book-wise :study: think of masses, carrying on their movevements frictionless for eternity through imaginary endless space?

'The locomotive is pulling strongly' the unprepossessed child says, 'of course the train doesn't stop!'. :lol: :D
Hence, the refinement of wording such a puzzle is iterative.

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 Post subject: Re: Physics puzzles
Post #36 Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:16 am 
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HermanHiddema wrote:
The title "Physics puzzles" reminded me of this one:

Image

from xkcd :)


I was only a few percents off in my nonsense solution ;)
Solution as you might have guessed:

Attachment:
circuit.jpg
circuit.jpg [ 72.33 KiB | Viewed 10034 times ]

Fill in n_= 1 and p_ = 2 for the endpoints ( or the other way around ) and you get

4/pi - 1/2 ~= 0.77 Ohm


published by D. Atkinson and F.J. van Steenwijk. link.
The first one, curious enough, is the professor who taught me Quantum Electrodynamics in the seventies. qed

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Post #37 Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:32 pm 
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Tommie wrote:
ethanb wrote:
Even disregarding flOvermind's (correct, I believe) argument from conservation of momentum, there is also the point that the collision with the insect is partly elastic. I didn't see you mention "a spherical mosquito of uniform density" but you did say that it squished. Therefore the transfer of kinetic energy actually took place over time, not in a single instant. So zero wasn't a factor anyway.


Did we book-wise :study: think of masses, carrying on their movevements frictionless for eternity through imaginary endless space?


Sorry for merging the quote blocks like that, but that was what I was getting at with the "spherical mosquito of uniform density" bit - the "reality vs. theory" (or rather an incomplete theory) idea. There's an old joke that I don't actually know, but have seen/heard a reference to somewhere, and the punchline is something like "and the physicist goes 'First you have to assume a spherical chicken of uniform density!'" Oh, and the "therefore" was related to the squishing, not to the shape or density of the mosquito.

And yeah, I knew it was a puzzle to enjoy - and I was, just in a joking tone. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that. :)

But no, the mass of the mosquito is comparatively so small that even if it were a completely inelastic collision, its velocity would have to oppose the train's at an appreciable fraction of the speed of light before it made a noticeable impact.

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Post #38 Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:19 am 
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http://xkcd.com/669/ ;)

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Post #39 Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 8:01 am 
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HermanHiddema wrote:
The title "Physics puzzles" reminded me of this one:

Image

from xkcd :)


Finally, I got the humor of your contribution. It takes longer for a nerd, you know. I enjoyed to have been sniped totally. To share some of my pleasures here some youtube.

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Last edited by cyclops on Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #40 Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:39 am 
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Three people are the last survivors of a capsized, sunk cruise ship,
an engineer , a physicist and an economist (macro~).

They can save themselves onto a small unihabited island.

Some last cans of beluga caviar and other essential nourriture is washed-up as well.

Exhausted and starving, they hurry to get the food.

The engineer takes shells, stones etc. and opens the cans within 2 minutes. :bow: :clap:

The physicist/mathematician mumbles erh_pi_square_time_m_c_v.... and lays the cans under a coconut tree. :tmbup:

The macro-economist ponders: " Assuming that we had had a tin-opener .... " :D
[img]
http://www.cowart.info/Cool%20Stuff%20I ... age005.gif[/img]

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