To like a post does not mean to agree with 100% of its content ... hopefully, my last post gives a broader insight into how I perceive sportsmanship.

topazg, maybe simply my number of played games >30.000 is the cause of our different experience. Also not wanting to become high dan is not your only solution. A different approach is for us to agree on a consensus and enforce it as explicit, written tournament rules. (If you dislike that option, too, then by all means don't play too many games...)

I think the problem here is a combination of a poor timing system and the somewhat unique way that go games end. Because the game doesn't end until both players pass, someone can stall more or less indefinitely if they wish, and therefore I think sudden death is completely inappropriate for go.

I understand and respect Robert's desire to minimize referee arbitration in go. And I do think timesuji are a part of the game: part of playing high-level go is managing the clock. I don't think it's unsporting for a player with a time advantage to try to find difficult variations to win, or even to play speculative invasions late in the game to increase time pressure on the opponent. If you can't defend your territory in the allotted time, you don't deserve to keep it! But I think 20 seconds / move are more than sufficient to handle most of those problems, and if a player descends to the point of filling in their own territory, it's only a hassle to the tournament organizers who may be delayed in starting the next round.

I think most of the sportsmanship examples given are cases where a player ignores the letter of the rules, because he/she feels the rules aren't reflecting the spirit of the game (like in the case of kicking the ball out of bounds when a player is injured but the ref doesn't stop the play, which I was taught to do at a young age). Robert's point as I understand it is that if the rules aren't reflecting the spirit of the game, something is probably wrong with the rules. I think to a certain extent this is true, although the rules will never be a complete substitute for good judgement.

in the any sport with time if they are up by too much then they try to burn time.
basketball or football(soccor) is few good examples.
now..is it unsportmanlike to stall?
no!!!

if the tournament defines the rule and you are playing by that rule you should be ok.
how can you fault players for following the rule and trying to win.
all players have to do is play faster not to lose on time.
time is a part of the game until they set the rule otherwise.

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

From the rules of Pair Go: "Please refrain from trying to win on time when you have a lost game."

Seems pretty clear.

Pairgo, under the influence of the World Pairgo Association Rules, is an exception WRT to sportsmanship interpretation. (Also there I do not understand why Sudden Death is being used. SD should be reserved for only blitz and rapid games.)

Yes, you may be right.
But the problem in the case was that the two players did not follow the rules.

The Korean coach has claimed that the reason those two players played like that was that they (he and his team) did not know the rules clearly beforehand. Whether he really did not read the rules beforehand or he tried to protect his players by claiming it as his own fault, I do not know.

If they do think they played fairly, they should public the complete kifu, so people who have a reasonable strength on Go could have more information served for their judgement.

_________________
长考出臭棋.

Sportlichkeit does not mean sportsmanship. Perhaps you could say that Sportlichkeit is an element of sportsmanship, but they are certainly not synonyms.

Please compare:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sportsmanship
with:
http://www.dwds.de/?kompakt=1&sh=1&qu=sportlichkeit

All athletes do their best to win. This does not mean that they exhibit sportsmanship.

_________________
Patience, grasshopper.

Language is for communication. If people understand what does it want to express, that's ok then. If many people use it in daily life, some years later, it may be listed as one the the defination in dictionary.

How non-native speakers use the words is not the main topic of this thread. Nothing can be 100% translated from one lanuage to another.

Good to point it out though. Maybe better to give a word to replace it, if that did not express the meaning. Someone may did it, but i can not bother to read such long discussions on it.

_________________
长考出臭棋.

Sorry, but your German dictionary citation is ultimately misleading, if not entirely wrong. "sportlich" has a very different meaning from "Sportlichkeit". The citation does not represent this at all! A good German dictionary would define "Sportlichkeit" in pretty much a similar way as "sportsmanship", although I guess that in either language different dictionaries (from different editors etc.) might emphasize different aspects. Your English citation puts conduct in front of the bracket; presumably elsewhere one might find fairness there.

EDIT: Of course, the minor meaning of Sportlichkeit is just the noun form of sportlich, and for that meaning your citation gives the right impression. It is the major meaning as a word with a newly assumed meaning that is missing.

EDIT 2: And then there is the minor meaning of sportlich, which is derived from the major meaning of Sportlichkeit... (The citation almost misses this meaning, too.)

/thread

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

You think there is a meaning of sportlich that is derived from Sportlichkeit? Good try.

_________________
Patience, grasshopper.

Precisely. (German is that difficult - or shall I say mighty and overloaded?)

Fixed.

(Just a joke. I love Germans.)

_________________
Patience, grasshopper.

I believe the phenomenon is backformation, or is closely related. Perhaps German has more hurdles here, but the phenomenon is general.

I'm no German speaker, so I excuse myself from discussing the particular example and whether it fits. For our edification, might any German speaker try to translate the terms and meanings under discussion into English?

_________________
Occupy Babel!

what defines lost game? 1 point? 2 points? 10 points?
i guess ref decide the definiton of lost game on case by case.
you call that clear? I DONT.

sudden death will not work on go game like this.

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

The point of sporting behaviour is not that it is within the rules. That is just behaviour. It's when you inconvienience yourself to do what you (or whoever is calling the behaviour sporting) consider to be the right thing. It is naturally a fuzzy and unclear thing, and as such has no chance of being settled in an internet forum.

Like a certain judge on pornography - I'll know it when I see it.

"sportlich" in its initial meaning: fitting well for sports activity, physically skilled for physical sports activity, mentally skilled for mind sports activity, having a body or shape of the visual impression of being physically skilled for physical sports activity

"Sportlichkeit" in its meaning of being a noun of "sportlich" in its initial meaning: [see there, but expressing the characteristic as a noun]

"Sportlichkeit" in its major meaning: sportsmanship, pursuit of sportsmanlike behaviour

"sportlich" in its derived meaning: being of the characteristic of behaving sportsmanlike

With respect to rules of play, I think its relation ought to be defined or else it ought not to be applied as a tournament rules concept at all. Players must be allowed to apply rules of play without any pressure of unpredictable referee decisions.

I think you misunderstood, on purpose or not.
The issue is not if people doing it or not. The issue is if they consider it to be good sportsmanship and if they are proud of what they do. I have also seen many people, for example, making pointless moves to win on time on the servers. But those I talked to afterward all agreed that this was not good sportsmanship - they simply did not care or considered the few extra rating points to be worth more. In other words - they chose the 'lesser evil' - be seen as unsportsmanlike and win the game than the other way around. It was their choice but it does not mean they themselves think this was 'proper' behavior.

You again display limited thinking: 'If they do it, they must think it is the right thing to do.'
People are MUCH MORE complicated than that, and you seem to completely miss or ignore that complexity - because it seem to suit your current argument.

There are tons of examples from outside Go as well. Take law and morality. Same thing. Once is written down, the other depends on the person. Still, just because people murder others on occasion, does not mean that the murderers are proud of what they do. There are many kinds of behaviors which, although perfectly legal, are not moral and might get you ostracized by society. Regardless of the fact that the offenders are proud of their 'offense' or not.

Your arguments seems to be running along the lines: 'if its legal, it must be moral'. Or: 'if its within the rules, it must be good sportsmanship.' Same thing. And very wrong.



Maybe it tells us that such relationship does not need to be clearly defined?
I would go further than that - such clear relationship is impossible to define clearly and certainly to agree on. Why? Combine two facts - your striving to implement universal rules (which is a good thing) with the fact that each society might have different ideas of good sportsmanship.



No, it must not.
Each of us has a good idea of sportsmanship, even though these ideas vary slightly from person to person. And a lot from society to society. You seem to have a very hard time grasping concepts which are not clearly defined, written down, and supported by a bunch of definitions, theorems, and examples. Not everything in life works like that, we are not all computers with clearly defined ideas. This is how we, as humans, operate, and it is good so. Certain things need to be defined as well as we can (rules of Go or the letter of law, for example) while certain things don't have to be (sportsmanship or morality for example.)

This way people have some freedom of action which is not bound by strict rules. It would be a very sad word if such freedom did not exist. And the consequences are not very severe - behave unsportsmanlike and maybe win a game at the cost of people disliking and disrespecting you, or choose to lost the game but stay respectable and maybe even admired. I think it is VERY GOOD that such choice exists. It is equally good that the same action might be evaluated differently by different people. This situation enables us to forge our relationships to others - since there is a freedom to their actions which tells us about their values and ideas, so we can decide who we respect and admire. There would absolutely nothing to go on if each facet of our behavior was guided by some well-defined and universal codex written by the chosen few.

PS:
Bottom Line:
I do not really think it is necessary to define good sportsmanship in a way that is generally accepted and agreed by all. We all share the idea that certain acts are good while others are bad, this comes from the upbringing and education. But there is also some room for individual judgement and opinion, and it is good so. This way the ideas can evolve over time and adjust to the changes in the world. Our kids might have a different ideas than we do, and I am happy that they will get the chance to evolve.

And most of us agree on such moral issues in most cases.
You seem to be one of the very few who does not seem to understand, no matter how hard others are trying to explain it to you. Over and over again, year after year. This tells me a lot about you, and allows me to decide if I wish to respect you or not. I am grateful for such chance, which I might not have had if the world was designed and defined according to your ideas.

But world also needs such odd-balls like you, so I forgive you.

_________________
- Bantari
______________________________________________
WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!