tapir wrote:I am somewhat puzzled by the notion that sportsmanship is a concept only native English speakers are able to grasp. (And that this post was liked by another native speaker.)
Di Canio is not a native English speaker after all.
To like a post does not mean to agree with 100% of its content ... hopefully, my last post gives a broader insight into how I perceive sportsmanship.
topazg, maybe simply my number of played games >30.000 is the cause of our different experience. Also not wanting to become high dan is not your only solution. A different approach is for us to agree on a consensus and enforce it as explicit, written tournament rules. (If you dislike that option, too, then by all means don't play too many games...)
I think the problem here is a combination of a poor timing system and the somewhat unique way that go games end. Because the game doesn't end until both players pass, someone can stall more or less indefinitely if they wish, and therefore I think sudden death is completely inappropriate for go.
I understand and respect Robert's desire to minimize referee arbitration in go. And I do think timesuji are a part of the game: part of playing high-level go is managing the clock. I don't think it's unsporting for a player with a time advantage to try to find difficult variations to win, or even to play speculative invasions late in the game to increase time pressure on the opponent. If you can't defend your territory in the allotted time, you don't deserve to keep it! But I think 20 seconds / move are more than sufficient to handle most of those problems, and if a player descends to the point of filling in their own territory, it's only a hassle to the tournament organizers who may be delayed in starting the next round.
I think most of the sportsmanship examples given are cases where a player ignores the letter of the rules, because he/she feels the rules aren't reflecting the spirit of the game (like in the case of kicking the ball out of bounds when a player is injured but the ref doesn't stop the play, which I was taught to do at a young age). Robert's point as I understand it is that if the rules aren't reflecting the spirit of the game, something is probably wrong with the rules. I think to a certain extent this is true, although the rules will never be a complete substitute for good judgement.
in the any sport with time if they are up by too much then they try to burn time. basketball or football(soccor) is few good examples. now..is it unsportmanlike to stall? no!!!
if the tournament defines the rule and you are playing by that rule you should be ok. how can you fault players for following the rule and trying to win. all players have to do is play faster not to lose on time. time is a part of the game until they set the rule otherwise.
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown" Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
Pairgo, under the influence of the World Pairgo Association Rules, is an exception WRT to sportsmanship interpretation. (Also there I do not understand why Sudden Death is being used. SD should be reserved for only blitz and rapid games.)
Magicwand wrote: if the tournament defines the rule and you are playing by that rule you should be ok. how can you fault players for following the rule and trying to win.
Yes, you may be right. But the problem in the case was that the two players did not follow the rules.
The Korean coach has claimed that the reason those two players played like that was that they (he and his team) did not know the rules clearly beforehand. Whether he really did not read the rules beforehand or he tried to protect his players by claiming it as his own fault, I do not know.
If they do think they played fairly, they should public the complete kifu, so people who have a reasonable strength on Go could have more information served for their judgement.
RobertJasiek wrote:John, don't worry about translation problems. German has the word Sportlichkeit, too.
Sportlichkeit does not mean sportsmanship. Perhaps you could say that Sportlichkeit is an element of sportsmanship, but they are certainly not synonyms.
Language is for communication. If people understand what does it want to express, that's ok then. If many people use it in daily life, some years later, it may be listed as one the the defination in dictionary.
How non-native speakers use the words is not the main topic of this thread. Nothing can be 100% translated from one lanuage to another.
Good to point it out though. Maybe better to give a word to replace it, if that did not express the meaning. Someone may did it, but i can not bother to read such long discussions on it.
daal wrote:Sportlichkeit does not mean sportsmanship. Perhaps you could say that Sportlichkeit is an element of sportsmanship, but they are certainly not synonyms.
Sorry, but your German dictionary citation is ultimately misleading, if not entirely wrong. "sportlich" has a very different meaning from "Sportlichkeit". The citation does not represent this at all! A good German dictionary would define "Sportlichkeit" in pretty much a similar way as "sportsmanship", although I guess that in either language different dictionaries (from different editors etc.) might emphasize different aspects. Your English citation puts conduct in front of the bracket; presumably elsewhere one might find fairness there.
EDIT: Of course, the minor meaning of Sportlichkeit is just the noun form of sportlich, and for that meaning your citation gives the right impression. It is the major meaning as a word with a newly assumed meaning that is missing.
EDIT 2: And then there is the minor meaning of sportlich, which is derived from the major meaning of Sportlichkeit... (The citation almost misses this meaning, too.)
RobertJasiek wrote:EDIT 2: And then there is the minor meaning of sportlich, which is derived from the major meaning of Sportlichkeit... (The citation almost misses this meaning, too.)
You think there is a meaning of sportlich that is derived from Sportlichkeit? Good try.
daal wrote:You think there is a meaning of sportlich that is derived from Sportlichkeit? Good try.
I believe the phenomenon is backformation, or is closely related. Perhaps German has more hurdles here, but the phenomenon is general.
I'm no German speaker, so I excuse myself from discussing the particular example and whether it fits. For our edification, might any German speaker try to translate the terms and meanings under discussion into English?
