89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)

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Laman
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Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)

Post by Laman »

both players made some mistakes in last moves...

first (and clearest) was w14 at S3 instead of S2, allowing black to cut off a white stone with P2 and force white to small life in the corner. black instead considered if his corner was not in danger - it indeed wasn't. but on the other hand, i also didn't find an obvious moves and had to think about it for a while. then white rejects connecting at P2 - if nothing better, it is clear profit and sente (sente because letting white to divide black's position would make black stones look silly).

i guess w16 E17 is not the best move possible, black showed good reasons why not. white could have played pincer H17, it looks more positive to me. pincering now after strengthening black doesn't achieve much, because white have no support around (therefore black is stronger, not heavier)

i feel black is slightly better but nothing is lost for white, it will be an interesting game hopefully
Spilling gasoline feels good.

I might be wrong, but probably not.
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Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)

Post by Koroviev »

Thanks for both EdLee and Laman for the comments, I look forward to reading them. :blackeye:
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Mnemonic
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Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)

Post by Mnemonic »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . . X . O . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Way too tired now. Will probably comment more tomorrow
While I was teaching the game to a friend of mine, my mother from the other room:
"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"
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EdLee
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B move 15

Post by EdLee »

B move 15.
The hane in sente seems to be the only move to me.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X X . . |
$$ . X . O 3 X O O . |
$$ . . . . 1 O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]
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EdLee
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W move 16

Post by EdLee »

W move 16.
Since B missed the hane, W should take it.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . . X . O . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Magicwand
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Re: White Move 14

Post by Magicwand »

EdLee wrote:White Move 14.
As noted at Black Move 11, White :w1: tiger's mouth keeps White connected with :wt::
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X X . . |
$$ . X . Q . X O 2 . |
$$ . . . . . O 3 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]

But with White :w1: pulling back, Black can split White:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 6 . |
$$ . . . . . X X 5 . |
$$ . X . Q 4 X O 1 . |
$$ . . . . 2 O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]


for the beginners or sdk's
basic life and death lesson.

below is unconditionally alive.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X X . . |
$$ . X . Q X X O O . |
$$ . . . . X O . 2 1 |
$$ . . . . 3 . O . 4 |
$$ -------------------[/go]


ko
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . B . |
$$ . . . . . X X W . |
$$ . X . O X X O O . |
$$ . . . . X O . 2 1 |
$$ . . . . 3 4 O 5 . |
$$ -------------------[/go]


conclusion: marked exchange is not only unnecessary it hurts you..
i have seen many sdk's make that exchange without thinking.(i was one of them when i was skd)
make sure you learn this L&D.
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Thanks, Magicwand.
Magicwand wrote:ko
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . B . |
$$ . . . . . X X W . |
$$ . X . O X X O O . |
$$ . . . . X O . 2 1 |
$$ . . . . 3 4 O 5 . |
$$ -------------------[/go]

conclusion: marked exchange is not only unnecessary it hurts you..
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Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)

Post by Koroviev »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . . . 9 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . . X . O . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As planned. Since he played J17 instead of K17, I suppose he might consider making an extension along the side, as well as the possibilities I considered in my last post. This position is pretty interesting to me, looking forward to seeing how it works out.


Extra hide tag to sow seeds of worry in my opponent's mind. :mrgreen:


Edit:
And another one, why not?
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Mnemonic
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Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)

Post by Mnemonic »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . . X . O . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Hm, not bad. I thought he'd play this. After which I could reduce the left side.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . . X . O . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This doesn't work now :sad: I'll jump once because he is starting to build a decent framework and a stone on the 3 line doesn't help much. I'm also pretty confident that it is sente because otherwise I could kill those two stones in the upper left.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . . . 4 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . . X . O . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

These are the points I'm contemplating next. Right now I'm leaning toward the wedge
While I was teaching the game to a friend of mine, my mother from the other room:
"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"
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Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)

Post by Koroviev »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . . X . O . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Progressing as planned. My stone is right on the sector line of White's area, so is in some danger (this is an idea I've just learned about, so I may not understand it fully) but with the relative weakness of the white group to the east, I don't think I can get shut in. I don't want to help white take easy territory on the left, but if he plays there then it leaves his middle group open to attack, so I doubt he will. I expect a cap of some kind, and a running fight to follow. What I want to do is make sure my group can escape to the centre, then approach the bottom left. Still, I am aware that it doesn't look like I can easily make even one eye on the side, so it may not be easy to keep my group safe.
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Mnemonic
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Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)

Post by Mnemonic »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . . X . O . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm playing the wedge and expecting this. Blocking from the other way would be pretty bad for him.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . 5 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . . X . O . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This way my 2 floating stones on the top have somewhere to go and his top and bottom stones are separated. Yes he gets a big corner but everybody always says the ogeima has a lot of aji, maybe I'll find and use something later :)
While I was teaching the game to a friend of mine, my mother from the other room:
"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"
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Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)

Post by judicata »

As black, I'd probably approach from the opposite direction of white's diagram--between the J17 stones and R11, and prepare to attack whichever white doesn't defend. I can see why white wants to R11, but maybe he should jump out to J13 first--unfortunately, this induces black to strengthen the F17 group, but I'm not sure what choice white has.
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EdLee
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W move 22

Post by EdLee »

W move 22.
W's big wedge (a) in the game is big, but it may not be the most urgent.
Jumping out toward the center seems more urgent, since W starts to control the center and keeps B under attack:
(After W has gained strength in the center from this attack, then later, it is even easier for W to invade the right side.)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . . X . O . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Otherwise, B jumps out, controlling the center, and now W is under attack.
(When two weak groups are running, it is important to be ahead.)
So the center area is a big shared point:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . . X . O . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Possible variation -- make B even heavier first:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 1 . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
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Koroviev
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Re: 89. Koroviev (12k) vs Mnemonic (11k)

Post by Koroviev »

Morning Mnemonic, I'm hoping to get some revenge here after getting thrashed in our tourney game on KGS. :rambo:

I've been struck by how useful these games are - being required to write down mythoughts really forces me to think things through more carefully. And in doing so I have come to the following conclusion: go is hard.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . . X . O . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Lots of options, uncertain which is most urgent. A couple of sequences I considered immediately:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . . X . O . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . . X . O . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Basically I'd like to attack his weak group, thereby ensuring mine has run out into the open...but I'd like to make some profitable or necessary exchange somewhere else first. The problem is, he could ignore my initial move and attack my weak group severely, so I have to find something that's definitely bigger than attacking my weak group.

The move I'm thinking about attacking with is a simple cap - it doesn't seem ideal to me, because it seems to push his weak group toward his stone on the side:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . . X . O . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But if I attack from the other side, I push him against my weak group, which definitely looks like a mistake to me:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . . X . O . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is helping him make territory on the left side, as well as keeping my weak group within his sector line, so I think the cap is the best attack I can come up with.

I'm also very keen to approach the bottom left before he encloses it, but I don't think it's certain he will respond to my approach if I make it now. All things considered, I've decided to attack his weak group first. If he responds, I'll try to play a dual-purpose follow up, that will both continue the attack and take a big point on the right. After he is forced to extend, I can approach the bottom left. This is one idea:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: B: 0, W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . 4 . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . . X . O . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm not sure if the B25 suggested above is on the right side or not (play away from thickness, sure, but doesn't this just let white remove my territory on the lower right side?), maybe B26, W25 would be better, but I think my first move (the cap) is definitely the best option - I can consider my follow up after that. :mrgreen:
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EdLee
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B move 23

Post by EdLee »

Koroviev wrote:I have come to the following conclusion: go is hard.
:clap:

Not for the players:
Black 23 cap is a good move! :clap: Much of Koroviev's analysis about the cap is correct.
Koroviev wrote:The problem is, he could ignore my initial move and attack my weak group severely,
That's correct. For example, in Koroviev's second variation, the B keima 23 is gote, and W would tenuki:
(Also, the upper right corner is still open to an invasion, e.g. at 3-3 (a).)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm23
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . . . X . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 2 . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . . X . O . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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