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Author Message
Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k)
Post #21 Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:14 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 2060
Location: Texas
Liked others: 546
Was liked: 173
Rank: KGS 3k
GD Posts: 264
KGS: Chew
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0.5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Anything else just looks soft or risky. I can get get pressured here, but the results I see look doable. A 12-18k friend glanced over my shoulder and asked 'Well, you're going to play there, right?' My answer was 'Probably, but I don't want to.' If the bottom right gets huge, it could be trouble. We'll see.

_________________
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Offline CSamurai
 Post subject: Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k)
Post #22 Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:38 pm 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 348
Liked others: 16
Was liked: 31
Rank: KGS4k
KGS: CSamurai
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0.5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


We're gonna get complex here.

I don't think this is great for white.

Let's take a look at why.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0.5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 5 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This sequence looks kinda like an avalanche joseki. Except for one thing.. The marked white stone is out of place. Both A and B are usual for this joseki, I don't think anyone would play this though..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0.5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


6 is clearly out of place.

At this point, I'm not certain of how to punish this weakness, but I think it involves cutting.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0.5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 5 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 9 7 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I suspect play will move along these lines, and I may end up attacking 14 and 16. It's interesting, and I'll have to look at it to decide if I want to give up influence in this area in order to take a corner.

White can resist giving up the corner, at the cost of giving me a lot of influence.

I need to deeply consider continuations after Chew's next move.
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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k)
Post #23 Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:46 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 2060
Location: Texas
Liked others: 546
Was liked: 173
Rank: KGS 3k
GD Posts: 264
KGS: Chew
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0.5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


For 'complex', you're not giving me a lot of options!

Like I said, I don't see a lot of possibilities. I expect this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0.5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 8 7 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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 Profile  
 
Offline CSamurai
 Post subject: Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k)
Post #24 Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:27 pm 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 348
Liked others: 16
Was liked: 31
Rank: KGS4k
KGS: CSamurai
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0.5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 7 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Only one move for me here, but from here on out, this looks like a train wreck. :) have fun!
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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k)
Post #25 Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:42 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 2060
Location: Texas
Liked others: 546
Was liked: 173
Rank: KGS 3k
GD Posts: 264
KGS: Chew
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0.5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Changed my mind, my prior plan was too passive.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0.5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 3 B O X . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . |
$$ | . 4 2 W 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I get the corner, or...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0.5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 0 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 6 B O X 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 1 W 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I get the corner?

_________________
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Offline CSamurai
 Post subject: Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k)
Post #26 Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:02 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 348
Liked others: 16
Was liked: 31
Rank: KGS4k
KGS: CSamurai
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0.5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 9 X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I had to think about this for a while.

I /think/ this is the right move in the long run.

So, several choices here...


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0.5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X z . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . a X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A-D are moves that I considered. C lets white solidify the corner, in exchange for big moyo. But I don't like the thought of losing sente, and the cut at Z needs protected.

D seems like a bad plan, since it forces white to fix without accomplishing anything for me.

B is.. complex, but out of order. Until I play A, B lacks strong teeth.

So we're back to A, which activates the cut at b, and makes C a killing move. Again, I think this looks like avalanche, but I don't clearly recall what happens next.

Maybe..


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0.5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 1 X O X 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



this is good for me, since I have influence all over, and white's a little unstable a couple of places.

It's hard for me to say whether this is equal or not, but the aji in the corner is nice, and my outside group is settled.

Other choices for white include..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0.5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 O X . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . 7 0 . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 1 X O X 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White gets strong on the outside. This looks like a poorly played small avalanche joseki, where the marked white stone is out of place.

But, depending on how white values the lower side, this may be playable. The marked white stone is weak, and black has room to steal the corner, so I'm not entirely displeased with this result, especially given that I take sente to go take the lower right corner.

I can't see any better moves for white than playing e2, and I'd love to know if there's something I'm missing.
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #27 Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:59 am 
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CSamurai wrote:
this is good for me, since I have influence all over, and white's a little unstable a couple of places.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 1 X O X 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
To reduce one more of B's liberties, perhaps :w6::
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 7 6 O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 1 X O X 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 0 . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
W has no weak groups and the two empty corners are miai for W.


Last edited by EdLee on Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #28 Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:21 am 
Honinbo
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CSamurai wrote:
Other choices for white include..
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm19
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . 5 3 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . 9 O X . 8 . . . .
$$ | . . O X . 7 0 . . ,
$$ | . 1 X O X 6 . . . .
$$ | . . . O 2 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ---------------------[/go]
No. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . 5 3 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X 6 . . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . . ,
$$ | . 1 X O X . . . . .
$$ | . . . O 2 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ---------------------[/go]
B cannot save :b3:, so perhaps:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . 8 3 4 6 . . . . .
$$ | . . O X . 7 . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . . ,
$$ | . 1 X O X 5 . . . .
$$ | . . . O 2 9 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ---------------------[/go]
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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k)
Post #29 Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:33 am 
Gosei
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KGS: Chew
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0.5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Okay, need some more liberties before I can try to eat the corner. Even if I couldn't eat the corner right away, I'd want to push here to give cutting points or make W fall back a bit.

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Offline CSamurai
 Post subject: Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k)
Post #30 Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:31 am 
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Rank: KGS4k
KGS: CSamurai
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0.5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Hey, I guessed right. And we're back to this move. I really don't think I have a lot of other options, since I've played it this way, this is what my answer has to be.

I can't wait to see which direction white chooses for response.
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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k)
Post #31 Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:00 am 
Gosei
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KGS: Chew
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0.5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I could have sacced much of this side to build up on the bottom, if I had atari'ed on top instead, but I'd rather have a group on both sides, if I can get them to both be stable. I'm actually considering C4 next. While it's bad shape, it reduces black's corner liberties by 1. After that, B2 would reduce the liberties to 2 and prevent escape.

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Offline CSamurai
 Post subject: Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k)
Post #32 Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:17 am 
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Rank: KGS4k
KGS: CSamurai
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0.5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So it was written, so it is done.
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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k)
Post #33 Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:51 pm 
Gosei
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KGS: Chew
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0.5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Decided to make ugly shape to reduce liberties. Looks like I've got a decent corner and am out on at least one side. This seems reasonable for the thickness I gave. If I can get out on the bottom, I'll be golden.

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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k)
Post #34 Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:13 pm 
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And it looks like the lings'll clean up the zealots here, Zerg successfully defending his expansion, securing the eco line. Protoss gaining a small advantage because of his proxy gate, which is allowing him to pile on early aggression in this stage of the game. It looks like it's time for him to take an expansion soon, which definitely gives him control of the map here.

If it were me, I'd probably start going showing some aggression on the map, if Zerg takes another expansion here, I think Protossw will definitely take the lead.
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Offline Aphelion
 Post subject: Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k)
Post #35 Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:43 pm 
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I smell the ugly influence of Husky/HD...
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Offline CSamurai
 Post subject: Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k)
Post #36 Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:36 pm 
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Rank: KGS4k
KGS: CSamurai
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0.5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I really think there's a better move than this, but I can't see it. Maybe I messed up somewhere.

Not a terrible result for me, though, knowing that I strayed from joseki wildly.
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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k)
Post #37 Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:18 pm 
Gosei
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KGS: Chew
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0.5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Trading sente for the corner, as planned. That's a lot of thickness, but I'm out on one side and have stuff like G3 that are interesting.

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Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Offline CSamurai
 Post subject: Re: 90: CSamurai (5k) vs Chew (3k)
Post #38 Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:22 pm 
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Rank: KGS4k
KGS: CSamurai
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0.5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O X X . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . 6 . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Mohhhh Yohhhhh.

I could play a few things, but I like this one best with my previous corner.

In review, I think the cut at C3 was overplay.

Still, the result is not terrible. White /can/ push along the second line here, but it doesn't seem like that's a great idea for white.

I am guessing white will tenuki into the last corner at this point.

I want to get f2 at some point, but I don't think I have the time for that right now, which is why the cut was wrong.

Backing up..
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0.5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . 9 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 8 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is a possible better idea for 17. I could have also done better after the cut..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0.5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


21 threatens some problems, so I think it's somewhat sente.

Both these outcomes are better than my current situation.

Not that this situation is terrible, but his 24 was better than I expected. It kills a lot of aji in the area. I'm actually shocked that he bothered with this 26, and gave me back some sente. The aji is mostly gone, Yes, his move kills it dead, but I don't think it's required.
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #39 Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:15 am 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
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CSamurai wrote:
Backing up..
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . .
$$ | . . O X . 9 . .
$$ | . . 8 O X . . .
$$ | . . . 7 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------[/go]
This reverts to a standard sequence:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . .
$$ | . . O X . 3 . .
$$ | . . 2 O X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------[/go]
The other way, W gets the vital point :w1: first:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . .
$$ | . . O X . X . .
$$ | . . O O X . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------[/go]
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject: B move 27
Post #40 Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:19 am 
Honinbo
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Posts: 8859
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B move 27
Probably better:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O X X . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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