4-4 pincer double-approach Joseki mistake?

[fwiffo]

I just had this joseki come up in a game (I'm white):

$$Wm1
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 3 . 6 5 . . |
$$ . . . . . X 7 . . |
$$ . . . . . 0 8 9 . |
$$ . . . . . 4 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wm1
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 3 . 6 5 . . |
$$ . . . . . X 7 . . |
$$ . . . . . 0 8 9 . |
$$ . . . . . 4 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

$$Wm11
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 4 2 3 . |
$$ . . . O . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wm11
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 4 2 3 . |
$$ . . . O . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

My opponent played , which is not joseki as far as I'm aware (should be directly at ). It doesn't seem like black should get the hane-connect for free if it's not joseki... But I'm having trouble coming up with a response for white that isn't worse than joseki. As the game went, I played it badly and I'm going to die. It doesn't seem like this position should really be that confounding!

[Kirby]

Seems slightly more gote-ish for black the way he played. White might still answer, but I feel slightly more inclined to tenuki this way.

[fwiffo]

I think white needs to protect against the hane in the corner or risk losing a lot.

[daniel_the_smith]

Indeed, pros never play . I can't see why not though.

[judicata]

I think white needs to protect against the hane in the corner or risk losing a lot.

Do you mean white needs to protect after black connects? The corner is small already, so there isn't much to reduce. I think if black can't kill, white should probably tenuki.

[daniel_the_smith]

oh wait, I see now...

$$Wm11 Gote... (can't kill white)
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 4 2 3 . |
$$ . . . O . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wm11 Gote... (can't kill white)
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 4 2 3 . |
$$ . . . O . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

$$Wm11 sente...
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$ . . . O . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wm11 sente...
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$ . . . O . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

edit: wait, maybe I spoke too soon... :/

[fwiffo]

If white doesn't play another move after the hane-connect, white can be pushed around badly just to survive. So yeah, black can't kill, but white will be forced to crawl on the second line to live or be shut in badly.

[topazg]

If white doesn't play another move after the hane-connect, white can be pushed around badly just to survive. So yeah, black can't kill, but white will be forced to crawl on the second line to live or be shut in badly.

My gut feeling is that White only has 8 points anyway. Sente at corner joseki stage is surely worth more than the reduction possibilities Black has, provided White is unconditionally alive? Which I suppose means the descent is a definite kill threat.

[judicata]

Indeed, pros never play . I can't see why not though.

According to a quick GoGoD search, the first 11 moves appear in only 15 games.

[Kirby]

I think white needs to protect against the hane in the corner or risk losing a lot.

IMO, the point is that white may still protect, but he is less inclined to protect than with the joseki sequence. Sente is based on the amount of points something is worth.

So let's say that joseki makes it worth X points for white to defend. I believe that it is worth less than X points for white to defend in this position - say Y points.

So if something is on the board valued between X and Y, that would make the difference between this and joseki.

In other words, in the second diagram of your first post is valuable.

[fwiffo]

I'm being a little bit unclear. I'm also being a little bit cagey because I'm analysing an alternate history of a game-in-progress and don't want to spoil it.

$$Wm15
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . a . |
$$ . . . . . X X O . |
$$ . . . O . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . . . c . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X b . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wm15
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . a . |
$$ . . . . . X X O . |
$$ . . . O . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . . . c . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X b . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

I don't think white can really tenuki in this position because of black moves at a or b. In the game, I cut at c and ended up in a bad way. My opponent has since blundered and let me off the hook - I even got to use a nose tesuji for the first time ever, but that's a whole nuther thread.

[judicata]

I don't think white can really tenuki in this position because of black moves at a or b.

Are you saying black a or b kills? If not - white has maybe 7 points in the corner. If black reduces that to 2 points, black gets 5 points. If this is the opening, surely there is a move elsewhere worth more than 5 points?

[topazg]

I'm being a little bit unclear. I'm also being a little bit cagey because I'm analysing an alternate history of a game-in-progress and don't want to spoil it.

$$Wm15
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . a . |
$$ . . . . . X X O . |
$$ . . . O . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . . . c . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X b . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wm15
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . a . |
$$ . . . . . X X O . |
$$ . . . O . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . . . c . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X b . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

I don't think white can really tenuki in this position because of black moves at a or b. In the game, I cut at c and ended up in a bad way. My opponent has since blundered and let me off the hook - I even got to use a nose tesuji for the first time ever, but that's a whole nuther thread.

I would be tempted to. I mean, playing locally is big, but:

$$Bm15
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ . . . . . X X O . |
$$ . . . O . X O 2 . |
$$ . . . . . X O . 4 |
$$ . . . . . X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . . . a . . . |
$$ . . . . b . X 3 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bm15
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ . . . . . X X O . |
$$ . . . O . X O 2 . |
$$ . . . . . X O . 4 |
$$ . . . . . X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . . . a . . . |
$$ . . . . b . X 3 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Because of the cut aji at "a", Black's going to want to play it or "b" at some point, giving White yet another free move. White can't be killed either:

$$Bm15
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ . . . . . X X O . |
$$ . . . O . X O 2 . |
$$ . . . . . X O . 3 |
$$ . . . . . X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . . . a 6 . 8 |
$$ . . . . . 7 X 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 5 . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bm15
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ . . . . . X X O . |
$$ . . . O . X O 2 . |
$$ . . . . . X O . 3 |
$$ . . . . . X X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . . . a 6 . 8 |
$$ . . . . . 7 X 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 5 . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Is simply alive, ignoring the remaining aji at "a". So, if we say that Black seals White in to only having about 2 or 3 points, and he had 8 points before, it's a loss of only 5-6 points + some ambiguous points for Black's thickness. In the late opening early middle game I understand a lot of moves are worth ~20 points or so (I remember this from a post-game discussion writeup where they played that "card go" game or whatever where the players could claim points and pass instead of move).

The argument being that actually the global temperature frequently goes up (increasing move value) after a few stones are down compared to an empty board.

So, for the loss of maybe 10 or so points I'd gladly take sente for something in the opening (bearing in mind that after in the above diagram, Black now really wants to protect at "a" too).

[fwiffo]

My judgement was that the influence from sealing white in - not just white's points lost in territory - make it too big to tenuki. But that's based on my eye's judgment, so I may be overestimating that.

[topazg]

My judgement was that the influence from sealing white in - not just white's points lost in territory - make it too big to tenuki. But that's based on my eye's judgment, so I may be overestimating that.

That makes sense. I just consider White already completely sealed in