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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Whole-board Tesuji Problem
Post #1 Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:09 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to play and kill something
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X X . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O O X . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . O O . . . O O X X . . . . X X O . O |
$$ | O O O O . O O X . , . . . . . , X O O |
$$ | X O X X O O X X X X . . X X . . X X O |
$$ | X X X . X O O O O X X X X O X X . . X |
$$ | . . X X . X X O O O O O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . X . . X X X X X O . X O O . O X . . |
$$ | X . X X O X O . X . O X X O O O X . . |
$$ | X X O O O X O X . X X X . X O X . X X |
$$ | O O O X O O O X X . . X . X O X . X O |
$$ | . O X X O O X X . . X X X O . O X X O |
$$ | . O X X O X X . X X X X O O O . O O O |
$$ | O O . X X . . . X X O X O X O . O X . |
$$ | . O X X X X X X O O O O X X . O O O . |
$$ | O X X O X O O O . O O . O X . X O X O |
$$ | . O O O O O X . . . . O . X . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Saw this in a friend's game. The game ended here, but there is one tesuji for white.

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Offline Harleqin
 Post subject: Re: Whole-board Tesuji Problem
Post #2 Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:21 am 
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White can capture two stones.

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Offline mw42
 Post subject: Re: Whole-board Tesuji Problem
Post #3 Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:23 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play and kill something
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X X . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O O X . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . O O . . . O O X X . . . . X X O . O |
$$ | O O O O . O O X . , . . . . . , X O O |
$$ | X O X X O O X X X X . . X X . . X X O |
$$ | X X X . X O O O O X X X X O X X . b X |
$$ | . . X X . X X O O O O O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . X . . X X X X X O . X O O . O X . . |
$$ | X . X X O X O . X . O X X O O O X . . |
$$ | X X O O O X O X . X X X . X O X Q X X |
$$ | O O O X O O O X X . . X . X O X a X O |
$$ | . O X X O O X X . . X X X O . O X X O |
$$ | . O X X O X X . X X X X O O O . O O O |
$$ | O O . X X . . . X X O X O X O . O X . |
$$ | . O X X X X X X O O O O X X . O O O . |
$$ | O X X O X O O O . O O . O X . X O X O |
$$ | . O O O O O X . . . . O . X . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Not sure I'd call :wt: a tesuji, but if black responds at (a) then W(b).
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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: Whole-board Tesuji Problem
Post #4 Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:28 am 
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Harleqin and mw: Yep, that's the one I was talking about. I thought it looked cool enough to show, not to mention that something similar could give the points I need to win, someday.

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Offline judicata
 Post subject: Re: Whole-board Tesuji Problem
Post #5 Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:32 am 
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I just read the subject and shuddered with fear.

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Offline judicata
 Post subject: Re: Whole-board Tesuji Problem
Post #6 Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:40 am 
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After actually looking at the problem, I realized worst fears are not manifest--i.e., it is not a tesuji problem that actually involves the whole board. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play and kill something
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X X . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O O X . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . O O . . . O O X X . . . . X X O . O |
$$ | O O O O . O O X . , . . . . . , X O O |
$$ | X O X X O O X X X X . . X X . . X X O |
$$ | X X X . X O O O O X X X X O X X . 3 X |
$$ | . . X X . X X O O O O O X O O X . 5 4 |
$$ | . X . . X X X X X O . X O O . O X 7 6 |
$$ | X . X X O X O . X . O X X O O O X 9 8 |
$$ | X X O O O X O X . X X X . X O X 1 X X |
$$ | O O O X O O O X X . . X . X O X 2 X O |
$$ | . O X X O O X X . . X X X O . O X X O |
$$ | . O X X O X X . X X X X O O O . O O O |
$$ | O O . X X . . . X X O X O X O . O X . |
$$ | . O X X X X X X O O O O X X . O O O . |
$$ | O X X O X O O O . O O . O X . X O X O |
$$ | . O O O O O X . . . . O . X . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Of course, black just should give up the two stones, and play another move at 9 (so white can finish in sente). Then again, I didn't count, so it may be lost either way.
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Offline dedroid
 Post subject: Re: Whole-board Tesuji Problem
Post #7 Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:45 pm 
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thanks, that was an interesting problem. I found it really enjoyable.
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Whole-board Tesuji Problem
Post #8 Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:37 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play and kill something
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X X . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O O X . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . O O . . . O O X X . . . . X X O . O |
$$ | O O O O . O O X . , . . . . . , X O O |
$$ | X O X X O O X X X X . . X X . . X X O |
$$ | X X X . X O O O O X X X X O X X . . X |
$$ | . . X X . X X O O O O O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . X . . X X X X X O . X O O . O X . . |
$$ | X . X X O X O . X . O X X O O O X 2 . |
$$ | X X O O O X O X . X X X . X O X 1 X X |
$$ | O O O X O O O X X . . X . X O X 3 X O |
$$ | . O X X O O X X . . X X X O . O X X O |
$$ | . O X X O X X . X X X X O O O . O O O |
$$ | O O . X X . . . X X O X O X O . O X . |
$$ | . O X X X X X X O O O O X X . O O O . |
$$ | O X X O X O O O . O O . O X . X O X O |
$$ | . O O O O O X . . . . O . X . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


¡Cuidado!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Oops!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X X . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O O X . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . O O . . . O O X X . . . . X X O . O |
$$ | O O O O . O O X . , . . . . . , X O O |
$$ | X O X X O O X X X X . . X X . . X X O |
$$ | X X X . X O O O O X X X X O X X . 1 X |
$$ | . . X X . X X O O O O O X O O X . 3 2 |
$$ | . X . . X X X X X O . X O O . O X 5 4 |
$$ | X . X X O X O . X . O X X O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O O O X O X . X X X . X O . O X X |
$$ | O O O X O O O X X . . X . X O . O X O |
$$ | . O X X O O X X . . X X X O . O X X O |
$$ | . O X X O X X . X X X X O O O . O O O |
$$ | O O . X X . . . X X O X O X O . O X . |
$$ | . O X X X X X X O O O O X X . O O O . |
$$ | O X X O X O O O . O O . O X . X O X O |
$$ | . O O O O O X . . . . O . X . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Correct defense
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X X . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O O X . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . O O . . . O O X X . . . . X X O . O |
$$ | O O O O . O O X . , . . . . . , X O O |
$$ | X O X X O O X X X X . . X X . . X X O |
$$ | X X X . X O O O O X X X X O X X . . X |
$$ | . . X X . X X O O O O O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . X . . X X X X X O . X O O . O X 2 . |
$$ | X . X X O X O . X . O X X O O O X . . |
$$ | X X O O O X O X . X X X . X O X 1 X X |
$$ | O O O X O O O X X . . X . X O X 3 X O |
$$ | . O X X O O X X . . X X X O . O X X O |
$$ | . O X X O X X . X X X X O O O . O O O |
$$ | O O . X X . . . X X O X O X O . O X . |
$$ | . O X X X X X X O O O O X X . O O O . |
$$ | O X X O X O O O . O O . O X . X O X O |
$$ | . O O O O O X . . . . O . X . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Safe!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X X . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O O X . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . O O . . . O O X X . . . . X X O . O |
$$ | O O O O . O O X . , . . . . . , X O O |
$$ | X O X X O O X X X X . . X X . . X X O |
$$ | X X X . X O O O O X X X X O X X . 3 X |
$$ | . . X X . X X O O O O O X O O X . 5 4 |
$$ | . X . . X X X X X O . X O O . O X X 6 |
$$ | X . X X O X O . X . O X X O O O X 2 1 |
$$ | X X O O O X O X . X X X . X O . O X X |
$$ | O O O X O O O X X . . X . X O . O X O |
$$ | . O X X O O X X . . X X X O . O X X O |
$$ | . O X X O X X . X X X X O O O . O O O |
$$ | O O . X X . . . X X O X O X O . O X . |
$$ | . O X X X X X X O O O O X X . O O O . |
$$ | O X X O X O O O . O O . O X . X O X O |
$$ | . O O O O O X . . . . O . X . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Correct play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X X . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O O X . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . O O . . . O O X X . . . . X X O . O |
$$ | O O O O . O O X . , . . . . . , X O O |
$$ | X O X X O O X X X X . . X X . . X X O |
$$ | X X X . X O O O O X X X X O X X . 1 X |
$$ | . . X X . X X O O O O O X O O X 8 3 2 |
$$ | . X . . X X X X X O . X O O . O X 5 4 |
$$ | X . X X O X O . X . O X X O O O X 0 6 |
$$ | X X O O O X O X . X X X . X O X 7 X X |
$$ | O O O X O O O X X . . X . X O X 9 X O |
$$ | . O X X O O X X . . X X X O . O X X O |
$$ | . O X X O X X . X X X X O O O . O O O |
$$ | O O . X X . . . X X O X O X O . O X . |
$$ | . O X X X X X X O O O O X X . O O O . |
$$ | O X X O X O O O . O O . O X . X O X O |
$$ | . O O O O O X . . . . O . X . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Edit:

Oops! I goofed.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Correct play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X X . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O O X . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . O O . . . O O X X . . . . X X O . O |
$$ | O O O O . O O X . , . . . . . , X O O |
$$ | X O X X O O X X X X . . X X . . X X O |
$$ | X X X . X O O O O X X X X O X X a 1 X |
$$ | . . X X . X X O O O O O X O O X . 2 3 |
$$ | . X . . X X X X X O . X O O . O X . 4 |
$$ | X . X X O X O . X . O X X O O O X . . |
$$ | X X O O O X O X . X X X . X O X b X X |
$$ | O O O X O O O X X . . X . X O X . X O |
$$ | . O X X O O X X . . X X X O . O X X O |
$$ | . O X X O X X . X X X X O O O . O O O |
$$ | O O . X X . . . X X O X O X O . O X . |
$$ | . O X X X X X X O O O O X X . O O O . |
$$ | O X X O X O O O . O O . O X . X O X O |
$$ | . O O O O O X . . . . O . X . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w1: is the right way to start. Then :b2: is correct defense, leading to the ko.

It is after midnight. Maybe White can play at "a" and fight the ko. In fact, I am pretty sure of it. But I am going to bed, now. ;)

If :w1: is at "b", Black can capture the stone, and White has lost a ko threat.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Whole-board Tesuji Problem
Post #9 Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:46 am 
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Chew Terr wrote:
White to play and kill something


My solution:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X X . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O O X . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . O O . . . O O X X . . . . X X O . O |
$$ | O O O O . O O X . , . . . . . , X O O |
$$ | X O X X O O X X X X . . X X . . X X O |
$$ | X X X . X O O O O X X X X O X X . . X |
$$ | . . X X . X X O O O O O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . X . . X X X X X O . X O O W O X . . |
$$ | X . X X O X O . X . O X X O O O X . . |
$$ | X X O O O X O X . X X X . X O X . X X |
$$ | O O O X O O O X X . . X . X O X . X O |
$$ | . O X X O O X X . . X X X O . O X X O |
$$ | . O X X O X X . X X X X O O O . O O O |
$$ | O O . X X . . . X X O X O X O . O X . |
$$ | . O X X X X X X O O O O X X . O O O . |
$$ | O X X O X O O O . O O . O X . X O X O |
$$ | . O O O O O X . . . . O . X . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Whole-board Tesuji Problem
Post #10 Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:53 am 
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Thank you all for showing me I should have spotted it :P
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Offline entropi
 Post subject: Re: Whole-board Tesuji Problem
Post #11 Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:18 am 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Chew Terr wrote:
White to play and kill something


My solution:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X X . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O O X . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . O O . . . O O X X . . . . X X O . O |
$$ | O O O O . O O X . , . . . . . , X O O |
$$ | X O X X O O X X X X . . X X . . X X O |
$$ | X X X . X O O O O X X X X O X X . . X |
$$ | . . X X . X X O O O O O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . X . . X X X X X O . X O O W O X . . |
$$ | X . X X O X O . X . O X X O O O X . . |
$$ | X X O O O X O X . X X X . X O X . X X |
$$ | O O O X O O O X X . . X . X O X . X O |
$$ | . O X X O O X X . . X X X O . O X X O |
$$ | . O X X O X X . X X X X O O O . O O O |
$$ | O O . X X . . . X X O X O X O . O X . |
$$ | . O X X X X X X O O O O X X . O O O . |
$$ | O X X O X O O O . O O . O X . X O X O |
$$ | . O O O O O X . . . . O . X . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



My solution:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X X . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O O X . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . O O . . . O O X X . . . . X X O . O |
$$ | O O O O . O O X . , . . . . . , X O O |
$$ | X O X X O O X X X X . . X X . . X X O |
$$ | X X X . X O O O O X X X X O X X . . X |
$$ | . . X X . X X O O O O O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . X . . X X X X X O . X O O . O X . . |
$$ | X . X X O X O . X . O X X O O O X . . |
$$ | X X O O O X O X . X X X . X O X . X X |
$$ | O O O X O O O X X . . X . X O X . X O |
$$ | . O X X O O X X . . X X X O . O X X O |
$$ | . O X X O X X . X X X X O O O . O O O |
$$ | O O . X X . . . X X O X O X O . O X . |
$$ | . O X X X X X X O O O O X X . O O O . |
$$ | O X X O X O O O . O O . O X . X O X O |
$$ | . O O O O O X . . . . O . X . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X X W |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline robinz
 Post subject: Re: Whole-board Tesuji Problem
Post #12 Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:28 am 
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Well, if we're into suicidal moves now, surely S17 is the biggest one? (Assuming black takes advantage by playing T19, and we don't get into playing "losing go"...)
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Offline entropi
 Post subject: Re: Whole-board Tesuji Problem
Post #13 Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:39 am 
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robinz wrote:
Well, if we're into suicidal moves now, surely S17 is the biggest one? (Assuming black takes advantage by playing T19, and we don't get into playing "losing go"...)


I don't think s17 is bigger. t1 brings the black group back to life.
Ok, the problem was killing something but t1 kills the game :)

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Offline robinz
 Post subject: Re: Whole-board Tesuji Problem
Post #14 Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:55 am 
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Good point - I'd somehow missed that :oops:
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Whole-board Tesuji Problem
Post #15 Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:16 am 
Honinbo

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An SGF file with variations. :)


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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

This post by Bill Spight was liked by 2 people: Chew Terr, lorill
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