109. Loons vs. Kirby

Shaddy · Post by **Shaddy** » Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:24 am

I think in your diagrams, black is unacceptably thick and white doesn't get enough to compensate. I meant that 26 should cut, but as white doesn't have the ladder it's a bit strange on this board. Maybe white just shouldn't play 25? I just feel black has far too good a result here.

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:26 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm36 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . 9 O . . . O O X . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . X O X O O O X X O . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . X X X O X X O . O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Ahh... I got a bad result. Hopefully the game is not too boring for you now, Kirby.
Thanks Ed, Shaddy. I was thinking two space jump instead of press might have been a more natural idea.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:15 pm

It definitely won't be boring, Loons. Actually, it's not totally clear to me that you have a bad result.

Anyway:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm36 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . O O . . . O O X . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . X O X O O O X X O . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . X X X O X X O . O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:57 pm

Taking probably the last big opening point, Kirby has left himself locally weak and territory-less on the bottom of the board, maybe relying on his leftern thickness to run to easily.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm Or just . $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . . x . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . y . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . O O . . . O O X . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . X O X O O O X X O . | $$ | . . . O . O 6 4 2 8 X X X O X X O . O | $$ | . . . . . . 7 5 3 1 . . . X X . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So I'm again left with either taking the weakness, or forcing Kirby to fix (to further strengthen my centre). I want to make an abcd type exchange (in which case I should probably strengthen my centre), but I also want x aiming at y (because an approach one space left of x is now a strong move by black, I think.) Maybe I can play 1 and force Kirby to connect out to reinforce my centre before playing a...

Edit;
:w1:

@

We might be in business. (Looking for a way to keep the pressure up while getting a good result on both sides

)

@

?

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:34 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm46 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . O O . . . O O X . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . X O X O O O X X O . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . X X X O X X O . O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And a question for you in the audience;

Puppycakes · Post by **Puppycakes** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:06 am

Aphelion · Post by **Aphelion** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 1:02 am

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:45 pm

I'm afraid I don't have Joaz' or topazg's knack for making simple illustrative analogies, but the reason I was/ am so dead keen on playing the K2 peep sooner rather than later may be seen in this joseki (haha, more "joseki").

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Black answers the peep and it's useful to white. $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 4 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 2 6 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc If white now peeps, black will happily play 'b'. $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 0 . O O O X . O , 9 . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X X 8 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a c X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . b X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 2 4 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

So in the game, if I play an outside move first (like j6), Kirby will indirectly fix that peep (h3 or something). (And the peep has a function in that Kirby will have to be a little more submissive/careful locally, also; endgame).

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:02 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm46 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . O O . . 2 O O X . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . X O X O O O X X O . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . X X X O X X O . O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Laman · Post by **Laman** » Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:30 am

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:19 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm46 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . O . . b . X . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . O O . . 2 O O X . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . X O X O O O X X O . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . X X X O X X O . O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

While I also favor black overall, I don't like this last move much. It can force a dicey fight if white plays at 'a', for example. While I would have tenuki'ed, probably by jumping to P9 (c), if black wanted a local play, I prefer 'b'.

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:01 pm

i I missed this, kirby strengthening his group in sente. My inclination is to take an exchange with a or b. I can save my stones with c or possibly with reading d. If I sacrifice those stones, both of kirby's groups become strong, so I will need to get something nice in en exchange. If I do sacrifice the two stones, I think perhaps I should start with c anyway, as a free extra outside move - this does seem to not punish Kirby's tenuki however. I'll keep you posted if my reading turns something up.

I think the current affair indicates I should have taken the L2 peep and then a knight's move with my group directly to reinforce my centre. I guess I still have a forcing move there of sorts later.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm46 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . b . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . O . c . . X . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . O O . . 2 O O X . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . X O X O O O X X O . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . X X X O X X O . O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:47 pm

You know, you guys have a knack for making me curious.

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:12 pm

Hah, Kirby, you can look at the question I posed before. I imagine everyone is saying "we agree with Shaddy, white shot himself in the foot with his noseki" (Knock wood).

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:44 pm

Thanks, Loons.

Life In 19x19

109. Loons vs. Kirby

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Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby

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Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby

Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby

Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby

Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby

Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby

Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby

Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby

Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby

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Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby

Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby

Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby