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Offline Shaddy
 Post subject: Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby
Post #61 Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:24 am 
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I think in your diagrams, black is unacceptably thick and white doesn't get enough to compensate. I meant that 26 should cut, but as white doesn't have the ladder it's a bit strange on this board. Maybe white just shouldn't play 25? I just feel black has far too good a result here.
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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby
Post #62 Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:26 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm36 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . 9 O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X O X O O O X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . X X X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ahh... I got a bad result. Hopefully the game is not too boring for you now, Kirby.
Thanks Ed, Shaddy. I was thinking two space jump instead of press might have been a more natural idea.

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby
Post #63 Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:15 pm 
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It definitely won't be boring, Loons. Actually, it's not totally clear to me that you have a bad result.

Anyway:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm36 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . O O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X O X O O O X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . X X X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think not tenuki-ing would be overkill. This move just feels right.

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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby
Post #64 Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:57 pm 
Gosei
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Taking probably the last big opening point, Kirby has left himself locally weak and territory-less on the bottom of the board, maybe relying on his leftern thickness to run to easily.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm Or just :w1: :b8: :w3: .
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . x . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . y . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . O O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X O X O O O X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O 6 4 2 8 X X X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . 7 5 3 1 . . . X X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So I'm again left with either taking the weakness, or forcing Kirby to fix (to further strengthen my centre). I want to make an abcd type exchange (in which case I should probably strengthen my centre), but I also want x aiming at y (because an approach one space left of x is now a strong move by black, I think.) Maybe I can play 1 and force Kirby to connect out to reinforce my centre before playing a...

Edit;
:w1: :b8: :w3: @ :b2: We might be in business. (Looking for a way to keep the pressure up while getting a good result on both sides :P)

:w3: @ :w5: ?

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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby
Post #65 Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:34 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm46 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . O O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X O X O O O X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . X X X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I remember Magicwand saying "A strong player must realize this is aji keshi". Not about this situation of course, but I think it applies here. If Kirby makes a gote move here later... Well, big gote is big gote. My invasion of the right... I don't know the normal move, really. His three stones are sort of attackable. He either gives me a base or an attack.


And a question for you in the audience;
Which colour have you preferred so far ? Has it changed ? When ? (Answer need not be directly readable).

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Offline Puppycakes
 Post subject: Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby
Post #66 Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:06 am 
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I prefer black. I don't think that white's particularly thick in the bottom right, so I'd feel perfectly happy playing R13 here.
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Offline Aphelion
 Post subject: Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby
Post #67 Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 1:02 am 
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I also prefer Black, but not by a huge degree. I think White has given up too much board presence, and I dislike the floating group. It is not thick at all imo.
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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby
Post #68 Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:45 pm 
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I'm afraid I don't have Joaz' or topazg's knack for making simple illustrative analogies, but the reason I was/ am so dead keen on playing the K2 peep sooner rather than later may be seen in this joseki (haha, more "joseki").

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Black answers the peep and it's useful to white.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 4 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 6 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc If white now peeps, black will happily play 'b'.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 0 . O O O X . O , 9 . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X X 8 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a c X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 4 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


So in the game, if I play an outside move first (like j6), Kirby will indirectly fix that peep (h3 or something). (And the peep has a function in that Kirby will have to be a little more submissive/careful locally, also; endgame).

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby
Post #69 Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:02 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm46 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . O O . . 2 O O X . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X O X O O O X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . X X X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It's kind of hard to decide the best way to respond to his last move, so let's see how he responds to this situation, first...

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Offline Laman
 Post subject: Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby
Post #70 Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:30 am 
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i am another one preferring black on the board, basically from the beginning. the game is surely still playable for white, but he has virtually nothing on the board (i am exaggerating here, but black seems ahead in both territory and influence), if black handles his thin 3-stone group successfully - and his 47 looks like a quite fine point to begin with

about white K2 peep, i don't really see its importance, it is not severe, only annoying. black gives white second line territory and through few jumps connects himself with the left side, and then it is more like joining strategic forces (which is to be avoided) than running to safety with a weak group

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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby
Post #71 Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:19 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm46 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . O . . b . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . O O . . 2 O O X . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X O X O O O X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . X X X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

While I also favor black overall, I don't like this last move much. It can force a dicey fight if white plays at 'a', for example. While I would have tenuki'ed, probably by jumping to P9 (c), if black wanted a local play, I prefer 'b'.

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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby
Post #72 Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:01 pm 
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i I missed this, kirby strengthening his group in sente. My inclination is to take an exchange with a or b. I can save my stones with c or possibly with reading d. If I sacrifice those stones, both of kirby's groups become strong, so I will need to get something nice in en exchange. If I do sacrifice the two stones, I think perhaps I should start with c anyway, as a free extra outside move - this does seem to not punish Kirby's tenuki however. I'll keep you posted if my reading turns something up.

I think the current affair indicates I should have taken the L2 peep and then a knight's move with my group directly to reinforce my centre. I guess I still have a forcing move there of sorts later.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm46 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . b . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . O . c . . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . O O . . 2 O O X . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X O X O O O X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . X X X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby
Post #73 Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:47 pm 
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You know, you guys have a knack for making me curious.

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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby
Post #74 Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:12 pm 
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Hah, Kirby, you can look at the question I posed before. I imagine everyone is saying "we agree with Shaddy, white shot himself in the foot with his noseki" (Knock wood).

Sacrificing those two stones would be inconsistent. I will save them. But how...

Edit;
Well, if my goal was to draw a very nice arrow pointing downwards, I'd say I've done very well - except I already ruined it with L3. So I guess I'm stuck making some sort of sacrifice if I'm to come out with good shape. I thought briefly I could sacrifice the four stones, but that's also a bit lousy. I also have some options to push for tricky situations, I'll look if there are some tesuji hiding.

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Last edited by Loons on Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby
Post #75 Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:44 pm 
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Thanks, Loons.

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Offline Puppycakes
 Post subject: Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby
Post #76 Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:40 pm 
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Chew Terr wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm46 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . O . . b . X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . O O . . 2 O O X . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X O X O O O X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . X X X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

While I also favor black overall, I don't like this last move much. It can force a dicey fight if white plays at 'a', for example. While I would have tenuki'ed, probably by jumping to P9 (c), if black wanted a local play, I prefer 'b'.


I don't think that the fight is all that dicey.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 2 . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . O 8 6 4 3 X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . O O . . 1 O O X . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X O X O O O X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . X X X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby
Post #77 Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:48 pm 
Gosei
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It's gonna be a little while before my move. Much as I would like to draw an arrow pointing downwards, L4 already ruins it a bit, so I need to work at alternatives.

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby
Post #78 Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:49 pm 
Honinbo

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Tygem: 커비라고해
Sure thing, Loons. I do not know of the arrow talk that you speak of, but it does not seem like it requires any action on my part.

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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby
Post #79 Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:33 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . O O O X 5 X . |
$$ . O O O O 6 O O X . |
$$ X O X O O O X X O . |
$$ . X X X O X X O . O |
$$ . . . . X X . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]

A grim portent.

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: 109. Loons vs. Kirby
Post #80 Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:01 pm 
Honinbo

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Ah, without L4 it looks like an arrow shape, you mean. Interesting observation.

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