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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!
Post #101 Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:06 pm 
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@Marcus
Why the top attach? I'd've been tempted to kick, myself, in light of your O4, P7 stones.
I guess there is more than one way to skin a cat.

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Offline Aphelion
 Post subject: Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!
Post #102 Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:23 pm 
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Loons:
I don't like the kick. It doesn't feel thick. After the kick Black's k4 group still has multiple weak points and is how heavier. I don't think Black can wholeheartedly attack with that to worry about.
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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!
Post #103 Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:35 pm 
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@Aph
Just to be clear, this is the kick we are talking about:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . 2 . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Seems to me white is the one who is heavy. White has to work hard to live or make some kind of sabaki. Maybe it's just personal preference, as I said. Do you think this is substantially worse?

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Offline Puppycakes
 Post subject: Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!
Post #104 Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:49 am 
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I certainly like Loon's kick better than the attachment on top. That feels like it's pretty much just asking Kirby to settle himself nice and easy. In this position, I wouldn't have even considered that. I think that black has too much influence in the area to attach and not pull off an attack.
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!
Post #105 Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:03 am 
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Puppycakes wrote:
I certainly like Loon's kick better than the attachment on top. That feels like it's pretty much just asking Kirby to settle himself nice and easy. In this position, I wouldn't have even considered that. I think that black has too much influence in the area to attach and not pull off an attack.

kick looks like an overplay to me.
white peep at bottom and get life in the corner or side.. and aji still remains from the kick.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . 2 . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . 1 O . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Aphelion
 Post subject: Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!
Post #106 Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:56 am 
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Loons wrote:
@Aph
Just to be clear, this is the kick we are talking about:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . 2 . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Seems to me white is the one who is heavy. White has to work hard to live or make some kind of sabaki. Maybe it's just personal preference, as I said. Do you think this is substantially worse?

Loons:
Well, thats the only kick thats worth considering of course; the other one is unplayable.

I still don't like it; because while I agree that things look tough for White locally, it seems very hard for Black to fix his left side group if White somehow stabilizes. The big thing that bothers me is that White has c1, and its harder for black to give up D3 after playing J2.
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Offline Marcus
 Post subject: Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!
Post #107 Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:38 am 
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Busy week, will post by EOD Friday (GMT-5)
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Offline Marcus
 Post subject: Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!
Post #108 Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:59 pm 
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@Loons:
Two reasons. First, neither kick felt like it did me any good. There are too many weaknesses in my shape. The second is more of a feeling. I seem to lose a lot of my games lately by neglecting central power. This game, I've been trying to keep that central power in favourable balance for myself. It may be the wrong way to play this game, but it's different from my typical play style and is a good learning experience.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . 3 O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now, I'm waiting for the observers to start screaming about consistency. :) However, I couldn't resist this move. I like the shape, what can I say?
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Offline EdLee
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Post #109 Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:12 pm 
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Hidden until lower right corner completely settled,
Marcus wrote:
I like the shape
Hmmm... either B's corner is destroyed...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$. . . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . . . 5 . . . O . . |
$$. . . 2 1 4 . 0 . . . |
$$. X 3 X W X 6 X . . . |
$$. . X O O 7 8 . . . . |
$$. . . . . 9 . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------[/go]
...or B's middle is ruined:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$. . . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . O . . |
$$. . . 3 2 4 . . . . . |
$$. X 5 B 1 X . X . . . |
$$. . X O O . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------[/go]
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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!
Post #110 Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:04 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . X 4 X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I can't say that I've thought much about this sequence, but it seems like the right thing to do.

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Offline Marcus
 Post subject: Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!
Post #111 Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:32 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X 7 X O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Corner is going to be his ... in exchange for being able to cut into the right side. I have a feeling this game is getting away from me. :D
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Offline Puppycakes
 Post subject: Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!
Post #112 Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:46 pm 
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Magicwand wrote:
Puppycakes wrote:
I certainly like Loon's kick better than the attachment on top. That feels like it's pretty much just asking Kirby to settle himself nice and easy. In this position, I wouldn't have even considered that. I think that black has too much influence in the area to attach and not pull off an attack.

kick looks like an overplay to me.
white peep at bottom and get life in the corner or side.. and aji still remains from the kick.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . 2 . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . 1 O . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Just curious: What would you have played?
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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!
Post #113 Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:31 pm 
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Marcus wrote:
I have a feeling this game is getting away from me. :D


@Marcus
Quick, while I'm distracting him, find some brilliant moves! (Hmm, I remember that senseis page being less convoluted and messy).

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!
Post #114 Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 7:33 am 
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I could try to live on the side, allowing for him to have some forcing moves against my bottom stones. Or, I could sacrifice my bottom stones, and hurt Q4 stone.

I'm not really sure which path I like better, yet.

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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!
Post #115 Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 4:58 pm 
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Puppycakes wrote:
Just curious: What would you have played?


below is my first instinct.
that invasion is very hard to answer. i will let him live and try to get some thickness with below move.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . 1 . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!
Post #116 Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 5:12 pm 
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@Magicwand - So you think black *must* play defensive, contact moves against that stone ? It seems to me that that must be submissive.

Edit: Oops, remembered that wrong. Cut me some slack, it was a year ago. Anyway I change my hindsight suggestion to L5 pending a little reading.

Original Post wrote:
Slightly relatedly, I've just recalled;
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . B . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In a slightly different situation (marked black stones were a little stronger, marked white a little weaker, a bit earlier in the game) this is often the right move (KGS+ lecture a few months ago, I'll try to look it up). This approach meshes a bit better with the idea that non-contact moves are for attacking. I'll edit in the exact diagram given when I find the KGS+ lecture (I think it was from Guo Juan's series on ponnuki).

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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!
Post #117 Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 7:27 pm 
Tengen
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Loons wrote:
@Magicwand - So you think black *must* play defensive, contact moves against that stone ? It seems to me that that must be submissive.

Edit: Oops, remembered that wrong. Cut me some slack, it was a year ago. Anyway I change my hindsight suggestion to K5 pending a little reading.

Original Post wrote:
Slightly relatedly, I've just recalled;
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . B . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In a slightly different situation (marked black stones were a little stronger, marked white a little weaker, a bit earlier in the game) this is often the right move (KGS+ lecture a few months ago, I'll try to look it up). This approach meshes a bit better with the idea that non-contact moves are for attacking. I'll edit in the exact diagram given when I find the KGS+ lecture (I think it was from Guo Juan's series on ponnuki).

i am not claiming that my move is correct. :)
i am giving my opinion and first instinct on a situation.
i am only 4 or 5 d kgs. which i s very weak..

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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!
Post #118 Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 7:30 pm 
Gosei
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Magicwand wrote:
i am not claiming that my move is correct. :)
i am giving my opinion and first instinct on a situation.
i am only 4 or 5 d kgs. which i s very weak..


You're still a giant compared to many of us! So we value your opinion greatly ^^.

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!
Post #119 Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 4:48 am 
Honinbo

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KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X 8 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X 7 X O X 0 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!
Post #120 Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 5:26 pm 
Honinbo

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KGS: Kirby
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I wonder where he'll play next...

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