My first reaction was that, since white has neglected to push and cut, I should solidly connect at D9. I still think this would be OK - but I think this is better (it does after all follow the proverb about how to respond to an attachment). By taking a liberty away from white, things can now get tough for him if he pushes and cuts now - whichever cut he chooses, D11 is double atari, and settles me nicely whichever capture I get to make. For this reason, I conclude that this hane is better than immediately connecting - I can always connect later if nothing better presents itself.

If he crosscuts straight away, I also get to capture something. So I expect to see a connection at D11 or extension to E12, but either way I think I can still cause him problems, especially since my stones are now getting close to his corner (and perhaps even, in some lines, getting close to connecting to my group on top).

There is a lot going on here, too much for me to read everything - but last time we had a contact fight, over on the other side of the board, I came out well, so I can hope for more of the same

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm60 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i would go further but i rather see if he protects or pushes in the actual game

OK, not one of the moves I said I expected, but at least I anticipated it for once At first I thought this was rather easy for me - I get to capture something, and am then more or less completely alive, and still with easy access to the centre.

However, while typing this post I saw that he has the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 5 1 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O 3 . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is a little worrying - I'm sure I won't die here, but I'll have to scramble a bit into the centre in order to live, meaning I can't yet tenuki and invade where I want to). But, after looking at the alternatives, I'm sure is my best move, and the above position is hardly disastrously bad for me, especially as it's my move. (I am tempted to play at F12, but will read some more and look around for alternatives.)

alright, see last post,
I'm about to see whether he pushes or connects here
then i will go from there

I guess he's going to play out the line I gave in my last post. Let's see how this goes...

No. It's fundamentally bad. Of course, there are exceptions when you must play this kind of broken shape, but in general it's bad, as it is here.
The first thing to understand is that the shape is fundamentally bad for B.
It's like learning about the empty triangle -- often it is bad, but not always, so we learn the exceptions later.
The problem is earlier: was bad; you probably have read Post #44 already.
So the cause was , and now we're seeing the symptoms and trying to control the damage.
If you want eye space, you can descend to (a), or, you can jump out to (b). But not (c).
Also, not all sentes are good. was a very bad sente.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . b |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O 2 . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

This exchange is not good because you haven't significantly limited white's ability to jump into your base. White can still hop in at a, just like he could before . However, white has gained at least the ability to monkey jump at b in the endgame. Also, white has gained a little invasion/reduction potential because black's 3 stones are weaker now.

I'm sure you know what it feels like when your opponent makes a monkey jump in the endgame and suddenly all the territory seems to vanish. This exchange costs a lot of points because of this, and in return all you get is a not-really-defended base that white can still hop into unless you spend yet another move.

Even if we eliminate all the life-and-death and endgame issues
(by adding the stones), the exchange is still bad because it is
a fundamentally broken shape for B:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$-----------------
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$. . O . O O O . |
$$. . . X X X O . |
$$. X . . . X X . |
$$. . . . . O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . X . . . |
$$. . . . , X B . |
$$. . . . O X . . |
$$. . . . O O 2 . |
$$. . . . . 1 . . |
$$. . . . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . B . |
$$. . . . X . . . |
$$. . O . . X . . |
$$. . . . O B . . |
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$----------------[/go]

It is still bad even if we flip it -- now it has nothing to do with life-and-death, the endgame, or monkey jumps:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . X . . |
$$. . . . X . . . |
$$. . . . X O . . |
$$. . . 2 O O . . |
$$. . . . 1 . . . |
$$. . . . . X . . |
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . , X . . |
$$. . . . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$----------------[/go]

The main thing for robinz (and 1986) to understand is this broken shape for B:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$. . . . . . . .
$$. . . . X . . .
$$. . . O O O . .
$$. . . . X . . .
$$. . . . . . . .[/go]

All the other stuff is also bad for B, yes, but it's collateral damage;
the main lesson here is the broken shape.

i found something to attack , lets see how he reacts
i was going to put up some variations but nothing is going according to plan
so now my plan is to embrace the chaos and adapt to it to the best of my ability

I take issue with saying that it's "fundamentally bad" because it's unhelpful to the beginner trying to learn why. Shapes are typically good or bad in Go because they are better or worse at certain goals. These goals can include creating eyeshape, maximizing the efficiency of your stones, minimizing opponent forcing moves, connecting one's stones, etc.

In your first diagram, it is bad because it gives up possibilities such as playing at and connecting under, as well as increases white's liberties from 6 to 7. I think it also gives white some minor forcing moves.

In your second diagram, it is bad because it allows white to get ahead of black, and white becomes extremely hard to surround. Moreover, black can definitely no longer connect, or even threaten to connect his stones. It again also increases white's liberties.

The overall theme for *why* this shape is bad is because in general, black becomes very strongly cut, and white ends up poking out and hard to contain, and stronger than before. Near the edge, "poking out and hard to contain" manifests itself as "able to play monkey jump and hop into base". In the center, it manifests as "gets ahead of black in the running battle and becomes un-surroundable". In both cases, if black previous had even the slightest hope of connecting, or even the hope of threatening to connect, it's gone.

Just saying something that amounts to "it's bad because I said so" is less helpful, especially if they gave reasons for why they thought the move was good and you don't refute these reasons.

There is no attack if Black can live whenever he wants to.

Thanks for sharing your opinions.
This has now ventured into about explaining or teaching Go,
and our approaches, ideas, and understandings differ in certain areas.
I suggest we leave it at that.

Well, I can't see any other choice here. White must now play B12, and we're back in the variation I gave a couple of moves ago. It's not as good for me as I'd have hoped, but I'm by no means despondent - I think I have promising possibilities to go towards the lower left and live while causing white some difficulties there. I will probably lose the possibility of a 3-3 invasion by doing this, but hopefully I can reduce strongly to compensate. OK, this is getting a little ahead of myself - the first priority is to make sure I don't die (And simply by doing so I will reduce white's lower centre quite strongly.)

now he does not have two eyes for this group, i want to profit while attacking the group

lets see how he handles this situation

So, this is another position in which I don't feel too comfortable. Firstly, I'm sure that I must have gone wrong somewhere in the previous sequence - and hopefully some of those hidden comments will tell me where when I get to read them after the game But for now I have to cope with the fact that my group is currently one-eyed. I'm not particularly concerned about dying, but I still feel that I want to secure this group as soon as possible, so that I have no weak groups for him to trouble me with when I go about reducing or invading the bottom. There is so much open space around the group that I feel this really shouldn't be a problem - and yet, when I sit down in front of the board and think about where is best to play, I honestly have no idea

One move that seemed natural to me was the attachment at D7, which I spent quite a lot of time looking at - indeed, I came close to posting it as my move. If he hanes on either side, I read out sequences which worked quite nicely for me and gave me a second eye. Unfortunately, I couldn't come up with any good response to him simply pulling back to C6, and therefore convinced myself that I shouldn't play that move, as it's clearly a bad exchange for me - D7 on its own doesn't really do anything for my group, while white C6 helps to solidify his corner.

So, I'm now looking to go in the other direction, at least to start with - hoping to use the aji of my D13 stone to put pressure on D12/E12, and get forcing moves that way. (Indeed, D13 isn't actually dead as it stands - if I get to play E14 it lives easily enough. But as there's little way I can kill those 2 stones by playing it now, especially with my own weak group to worry about, E14 is just an endgame move right now - and D13 stone may well die as a result of the moves coming up.

One possible sequence, for the sake of concreteness (with my usual disclaimer that this probably isn't best play for either side):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm67 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O 2 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . 1 3 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . 4 . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

(if white doesn't play I have my second eye there, while in the above sequence I'm running north towards my strong stones, and should survive easily).

I'm still far from confident either that this is the best sequence to secure my group, or even that this is the right strategy - am I being too afraid? Oh well, part of the reason I am playing this game is to learn from my mistakes

this is the only move, right now, its still his sente

As planned. I suppose he's picking up a bit of profit in the upper centre now (mainly be reducing my prospective territory there), but I think this is OK - my group is already largely settled I feel, so before long I'll be able to look to pick up some serious profit myself (to be fair, I need it - I'm sure I'm some way behind on the board as it stands. Hmm, this game could easily come down to the endgame, and my endgame isn't very good )

i thought about playing away but i found a nice little wrap around technique to kill my 3 stones so i must push one more time, this keeps the pressure on him and gives me options to connect on either side

Well, he's pushing from behind - something that is not usually recommended. I'm not quite sure if, supposing we both carried on pushing as far as we can go, the result is more favourable for white or for black. I suspect it would be more so for white, given that my group on top is not yet definitively alive (it has an open skirt, after all). My earlier suggestion that I would play at G9 to immediately create a second eye now looks far too submissive - Kageyama has drilled it into me that, in a pushing battle like this, the only options are to either extend or hane. I don't like haneing here, as white's crosscut is rather too close to where I want to play to create an eye. But I can push once more, then, if he pushes again, hane in relative safety I think. Make no mistake, that white wall is annoying, and I will probably have to weather some kind of storm against my upper group. But it certainly won't die unless I blunder (I'm pretty sure I can force a connection to the upper right, if necessary, even if I can't find enough eyespace at the side) - and my own wall will help greatly in my ultimate aim of reducing white's centre, so it's swings and roundabouts I guess Not to mention that white still has to kill my D13 cutting stone to even keep his wall alive - having looked again, it is indeed dead, even if I get sente to play E14, but its aji may yet come in useful.