Buying some Go books, suggestions?

[Nikolas73]

Thanks for the advice, everyone.

It looks like I will be buying:
[*]Attack and Defense
[*]Tesuji
[*]Fundamental Principles of Go
[*]Possibly Graded Go Problems for Beginners, volume 3 if I have any extra money leftover
[*]Possibly Lessons on the Fundamentals of Go, as I have a giftcard for an online retail store that sells it.
(Edit - It appears I might be adding "Life and Death" to the list now...)

And on my "to buy later" list (maybe in the summer, or when I start improving a lot):
[*]Invincible: The Games of Shusaku
[*]Train Like a Pro
[*]Possibly 100 Tips for Amateur Players (still looking for more info on this one...)
[*]Graded Go Problems for Beginners, volume 4

(hmm, I can't get the "list=" to work...)

Thanks again for the help.
Nik

[Bartleby]

I have some comments, mostly on 100 tips for Amateur players. I am about the same level as you. (5 kyu KGS on my most active account.)

100 Tips for Amateur Players Volume 1

Volume one has about 70 pages on 4-4 and 3-4 jeongseok (josekis), 60 pages on openings, and about 50 pages on "training."

The treatment of josekis is modern but very selective (obviously there is only so much you can do in 70 not very dense pages), and there is less explanation than in other joseki books. I found this portion of the book less comprehensible than 38 Basic Josekis, although I am sure it is more up-to-date.

The section on openings covers some general principles and some very brief discussions of some popular openings (sanrensei, Chinese Opening, Kobayashi Opening, and a 4-4, 3-4 opening where Black playes a small knight's enclosure of the 3-4 corner on his third move). I thought this section was pretty well done but it's a very brief treatment. "Opening Theory Made Easy" does a much better job of covering opening principles and contains a lot more material, and "A Dictionary of Modern Fuseki: the Korean Style" takes a more thorough look at a much larger number of openings.

The last section on "training" is a look at some specific tesujis (sacrifice, shortage of liberties, cutting, connection, some corner tesujis), with answer and failure diagrams. This section reminds me of Basic Techniques of Go in that the concepts they are allegedly teaching are probably known to anyone who isn't an absolute beginner, but some of the problems are actually a bit difficult (at least for me). The problems in this section are quite good but the treatment of tesujis is not nearly as good as in "Tesuji" from the Elementary Go Series, or even the treatment in Basic Techiques of Go.

All in all, I thought this book was worth going through but the coverage is not very complete (this book is really a sampling of the topics covered) and there are probably better books out there for learning all three topics covered.

100 Tips for Amateur Players Volume 2

I also have Volume 2 but have only really glanced at it so far. The first section on life & death didn't look that interesting (it's basically just 11 life & death problems with answer and failure diagrams), but the second section on invasions (11 examples of common invasions with success and failure diagrams) looks interesting, as does the third section on attacking (11 examples of attacking). However, "Attack and Defense" covers both of these topics far more thoroughly.

Comparing 100 Tips for Amateur Players with Intermediate Power Builder Volumes 1 and 2

It might be useful to compare the two "100 Tips" books with "Intermediate Level Power Builder" (ILPB) Volumes 1 and 2. (I have both volumes of ILPB but I have only read about one-third of the material. Some of it is a bit advanced for me at this point.) There is quite a bit of overlap in the coverage (ILPB covers choice of joseki, openings, and invasions in Volume 1, and attacking in Volume 2). ILPB seems to target a slightly stronger audience, but also contains a lot more material and has (in my opinion) much better explanations than 100 Tips. ILPB is also much more readable. (100 Tips for Amateur Players is rather dry.)

Basically, if you buy both Attack and Defense and Tesuji, you probably don't need a lot of the material in 100 Tips. And if you are looking for some supplemental materials on openings, invasions and attacking, that are targeted at a slightlly more advanced level, then ILPB Volumes 1 and 2 are probably a better choice because they are better written and contain more material.

Tesui and Attack and Defense Are Great Books that You Can Read Multiple Times

Both "Tesuji" and "Attack and Defense" which are on your list of purchases are fantastic books with lots of material and should keep you busy for a while. I have been through these two books and got a lot out of both of them. At the same time, I feel like I mastered significantly less than 50% of the material in each (probably more like 25%) and that I can still get a lot of improvement from re-reading them. Simply stated, these two books probably offer some of the biggest bang for the buck you can get from any go book.

[Andreas]

About "Invincible":

I like invincible very much, and have read it several times, but I dont have the impression I learned much out of it (maybe I have but didnt notice). The openings and joseki in the book are rarely played nowadays, and the high-level fighting going on is mostly over the head for mid-level amateurs. What I love about the book is the historical perspective, giving insight into go in Edo period Japan, and showing classic games. Its a "must read" for the dedicated go player, but not primarily a book for improving Your go at kyu level.

About "Attack and Defense", "Tesuji" and "Lessons in the Fundamentals":
With these 3 You cant go wrong. Studying life and death from a book is also a good idea, but "Attack and Defense" and "Lessons in the Fundamentals" cover their important topics better than any other English-language book I know.

[Nikolas73]

Thanks again everyone, I sent the order yesterday.

Attack and Defense, Tesuji, Life and Death, Graded Go Problems vol. 3 and Lessons on the Fundamentals of Go are all on the way. I ended up not buying Yilun Yang's "Fundamental Principles of Go" as shipping cost a lot more than I thought it would (I was counting on Amazon's free shipping for some of the books, but apparently this is not available in Canada).

More about "Invincible":
As for me at 5k I can only add that I enjoy this book very much, and that there is more to go than getting as strong as possible for every dollar.
This is cultural history and quite a gem.

Actually for those that can afford it, I would like to recommend the hardcover version.
It's dustcover, the beautiful ribbed red cloth, the nice binding, and the weight in the hand makes it a very treasured possession of mine.
(And if you can't afford it: Steal it! )

As for the rest I agree with the others in this thread.
(Except with Kirby, with his reasoning you might as well buy Igo Hatsuyoron )

I agree culture is an extremely strong part of Go. I became interested in Go history after spending two weeks or so writing up the history section on my website (link in sig). I will definitely have Invincible in mind the next time I go shopping for Go books.

Is Igo Hatsuyoron actually published, with answers/details, etc.? I found the problems on Tasuki's Tsumego site - yikes! I will wait until I improve a few stones before trying those again...

Bartlyby, your post was really helpful. I was not even aware of "Intermediate Power Builder" and I will also take a look at it in the future. For now I should have plenty to read... thanks everyone.

Edit - Of course I ordered the books from Kiseido one day *before* they had their sale in May . Maybe I will still get a discount - still waiting for them to arrive...

Nik

[azazil]

There is an English book which contains part of the Igo-hatsuyoron, but honestly don't waste your money. The problems are out of the question for almost all amateurs. Invincible is a wonderful book, but commentary (which is the reason you're buying it right?) is not for kyu players in my opinion.

- Az

[karaklis]

Invincible is a wonderful book, but commentary (which is the reason you're buying it right?) is not for kyu players in my opinion.

I have heard kyu players have improved from this by replaying the games and reading the commentaries. Would you recommend other books with commentaries of professionals' matches?

[azazil]

Generally, no.

Most books on topics in go use pro games as examples, and provide commentary that way. So reading other go books often indirectly gives you commentary. Pro games are played at a very very high level, there's no way around it, so commentary on pro games tends to be inaccessible to weak players. Maybe some 5k-1k can get something out of it, but for ddk I think it's definitely a waste of time.

The KGS+ lectures aim at a mostly kyu player audience from what I can tell (though I don't subscribe to them), so they might be a good source of simplified commentary.

I'm not saying not to look at pro games, but I think the in depth analysis found in most commentaries is going to over the head of most kyu players most of the time.

- Az

[Jordus]

Generally, no.

Most books on topics in go use pro games as examples, and provide commentary that way. So reading other go books often indirectly gives you commentary. Pro games are played at a very very high level, there's no way around it, so commentary on pro games tends to be inaccessible to weak players. Maybe some 5k-1k can get something out of it, but for ddk I think it's definitely a waste of time.

The KGS+ lectures aim at a mostly kyu player audience from what I can tell (though I don't subscribe to them), so they might be a good source of simplified commentary.

I'm not saying not to look at pro games, but I think the in depth analysis found in most commentaries is going to over the head of most kyu players most of the time.

- Az

I gained at least 5 stones just from playing through pro-games without commentaries. It helps you to recognize good shapes and such.

[SoDesuNe]

I know many players, who started to replay pro-matches in their SDK-range and became stronger, so I think, it's less about really understanding but more about seeing what is/which moves are possible in certain situations.

[Nikolas73]

Thanks once again for all of the suggestions. I do play through professional games sometimes, but not as often as I should.

All of the books have arrived now (a few days ago, actually), and for anyone who's interested I wrote about how I will be using them here.

[judicata]

I have had two different go instructors tell me to review pro games and imitate moves (i.e. good shape), even if I don't fully understand why. I have rejected this advice because I do not like to play moves without having any idea why. I also see moves criticized when when they the follow-up is poor because the person obviously didn't know why they made the move.

But, at a certain level (like mine) maybe this isn't such a terrible idea as long as you learn the "why" eventually. I'm still reluctant, though.

[xed_over]

I have had two different go instructors tell me to review pro games and imitate moves (i.e. good shape), even if I don't fully understand why. I have rejected this advice because I do not like to play moves without having any idea why. I also see moves criticized when when they the follow-up is poor because the person obviously didn't know why they made the move.

But, at a certain level (like mine) maybe this isn't such a terrible idea as long as you learn the "why" eventually. I'm still reluctant, though.

you do learn why eventually

and part of that learning may be making up your own reasons why as you review -- because you should never play a move without a reason, even if that reason is wrong. If the reason for your move is wrong, you'll soon learn why and have it corrected.