115 - robinz v. 1986

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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

For robinz, after the game:
If the double-hane :b1: works, you can play it,
but it's much more work (more reading):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O
$$ | . . O . X X X . . . . .
$$ | . O O . X O O X . . . .
$$ | X X O X . . . O 1 . . .
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . .
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O .
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]
Otherwise, the atari-atari is OK;
less work, or if you're very unsure about the double-hane:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O
$$ | . . O . X X X . . . . .
$$ | . O O . X O O X 5 . . .
$$ | X X O X . 2 1 O 3 . . .
$$ | . . X O O O . 4 . , . .
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O .
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]
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Mnemonic
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by Mnemonic »

@robinz
Please count before you resign

@observers
I really don't know what robinz deal is. I counted a few moves ago (after the upper right was settled and white managed to save his group) an it was pretty much dead even (within komi, which is dead even at our level) And that was assuming that white would get a significant portion of the lower side which black now has successfully reduced. What are your counts? And why does robinz constantly think it's time to resign when he's ahead?
While I was teaching the game to a friend of mine, my mother from the other room:
"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by robinz »

@Mnemonic:

Don't worry, I'm not about to resign in the next few moves (unless of course I have misread something and a largish group of mine gets killed). In fact, in the last couple of moves I feel I have started to come back - although I don't know if it will be enough for me to win.

I have actually been counting every so often, although I haven't put my conclusions on here. But, since you prompt me to, here's how I see it. The following figures for sizes of territories are, I realise, all on the low side - it's because I'm only counting points that are definitely going to be territory, whichever way the endgame gets played out.

Black has:

- 3 captured stones already
- 7 in the lower left
- 9 on top
- 6 in the lower right
- 17 on the right
- 38 points (including prisoners) on the right
Total 70, which will probably end up being 80-85 by the time the game is played to the end.

EDIT: I just realised these actually total 80, which makes things closer than I thought :)

White has bigger areas, so it's even harder to be precise, but I make about 50 in the upper left on its own. There will also be some number more in the upper right, some other small number in the centre (certainly including 4 from my dead M15). And of course the bottom, which, even counting for things looking better for me in the last few moves than they did before, I surely can't keep to below 20 (and is more likely to be 30+). And let's not forget 6.5 komi too.

This seems to indicate that, at best, I'm going to lose by about 10 points :sad: Funny, I assumed your comment was trying to say that I wasn't actually behind (or at least not by much), the count you prompted me to do has had the opposite effect...

I guess I'll let things settle down a bit in this region of the board and then try to count a bit better, but based on what I've just said, I don't see much hope - unless I can pull of some sort of outrageous kill down here... (saving F17 would be another option, and equally implausible to me)
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Re:

Post by ez4u »

EdLee wrote:For robinz, after the game:
If the double-hane :b1: works, you can play it,
but it's much more work (more reading):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O
$$ | . . O . X X X . . . . .
$$ | . O O . X O O X . . . .
$$ | X X O X . . . O 1 . . .
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . .
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O .
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]
Otherwise, the atari-atari is OK;
less work, or if you're very unsure about the double-hane:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O
$$ | . . O . X X X . . . . .
$$ | . O O . X O O X 5 . . .
$$ | X X O X . 2 1 O 3 . . .
$$ | . . X O O O . 4 . , . .
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O .
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]


The double hane looks like it is worth the extra reading (naturally I have not done it! ;-) ). The double hane and double atari are not equivalent here. Black does not want to just capture the two White stones and is much more interested in H4 than G5. For example...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O
$$ | . . O . X X X 3 . . . .
$$ | . O O . X O O X 2 4 . .
$$ | X X O X . 8 6 O 1 . . .
$$ | . . X O O O 7 5 . , . .
$$ | X X X O X O . . 9 . O .
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]


This looks like at worst a seki, so White can't reasonably expect to cut Black off.
Dave Sigaty
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- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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Post by EdLee »

robinz(after the game), ez4u,
Yes, if it works, do it! :mrgreen:
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1986
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by 1986 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm140 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X 1 . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


this is the only move right here, smartgo has me down by 25 points
so now its all about fighting spirit
Last edited by 1986 on Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by EdLee »

1986,
1986 wrote:smartgo has me down by 25 points
:shock: Did you two agree on the use of score estimators beforehand? :evil:
Also, all the spaces in front of your $$ messed up your last diagram. :)
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by 1986 »

Edlee

You know I forgot all about that I pm'd him about it thanks for pointing it out I never would have thought about it, I just use it for keeping a copy of my game on the iPhone Thanks
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by robinz »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm141 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X 1 . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


OK, he cut then. I've no choice here (at least if I want to be consistent), so I await with interest to see what he's planning next. It occurs to me that he may not defend against my double atari, as I probably only get 2 stones out of it. But I'll probably still take it if he lets me.
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by 1986 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm142 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . 1 , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


OK,

now that we got that settled it turns out we both have been using the score estimator this whole time

we didn't even consider being improper so everything is still good

except this board position for white, :lol:

here is my thinking for this move

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm142 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X 4 3 . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O 5 . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X 2 . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . 1 , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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ez4u
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by ez4u »

1986 wrote:
here is my thinking for this move

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm142 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X 4 3 . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O 5 . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X 2 . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . 1 , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Obs:
White is being too optimistic, I think.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm142 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 8 7 O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . 3 6 . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X 2 . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . 1 4 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . 5 . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Dave Sigaty
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- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by robinz »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm143 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X 1 . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I seem to have spent a lot of time in this game lately responding to ataris :scratch:

My first thought of course was to play G5, but in the following, which I assume would follow:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm143 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . 3 1 O X 2 . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

not only have I merely captured 2 stones in gote, I've given white a ponnuki and strengthened his area against any further reductions. Whereas now, if white protects against the double atari then I capture the J6 stone in a net while encroaching hard onto white's territory to the right - while if, as I'm sure is better, white keeps that stone alive, not only do I still have the double atari (when J5 will probably die but will not yet be captured, thus giving me more aji to work with), but I can see some other tempting options as well (although to the best of my brief reading of them, none work yet - but that's what aji's all about, isn't it? ;-))

I guess this is a slightly less standard example of "add a second stone and sacrifice both", although usually that applies to a stone on the third line. But the logic feels similar - and I might not even have to sacrifice the 2 stones, depending on how the play goes.
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by 1986 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm144 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O 1 . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


change of plans i got a evil plan! HA HA HA

i got the idea from understanding pro games yesterday
but i can make use of these dead stones
there is still a little aji to exploit down there
i need to strength s11 first because that Atari messes up everything right now
Life - maybe it depends on his response

diagrams later
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robinz
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by robinz »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm145 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . 1 . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


:shock: :shock: :shock:

I'll be honest, that move has made me lose all sense of equilibrium. It's clear that 1986 and I are just not playing even remotely the same game any more, and I can only hope that I'm not the one who's gone insane...

But the way I see it, he's just tenukied - and from an area that I think is pretty large compared to what else remains on the board - in order to die in gote somewhere else. This is why one of us must be imagining things, because there's clearly no way that 1986 would choose to do that. Indeed, even if the move is sente, but still dies, there'd be no reason to play it (it gains him no points, so it'd be a pure waste of a ko threat), so he probably thinks this even lives. As I've already said, I think it dies in gote - and I'm even pretty sure of this; there doesn't seem to be a lot to read. So, one of us has had a catastrophic reading fail, and I can only hope it's not me :-? (My confidence is not helped by the lack of posts since that of 1986 - if there really was a reading error that big, I'd have thought someone would pounce on it...)

I know I should always respect my opponent - and 1986 has certainly done enough in this game to make me respect his play, from the point of view that he's clearly at least as strong as me, on average (not that that says very much :lol:). But I feel I have to "disrespect" his last move, because my reading tells me that I don't have to respond to it. If I'm wrong there, I will lose in rather embarrassing fashion, but I really shouldn't be doubting my judgement - even if trusting it leads to an expensive mistake this time.

So, I'm ignoring his move to play where I want. As I said in my last comment, I think this net is pretty big, so I've played it.

The craziest thing about this situation (going back to the right hand side) is that, if he thinks he's alive now, he'll probably take my tenuki as acknowledgement of that fact. I hope we don't reach the end of the game disagreeing about the status of a large group - that would be a very 20k-ish thing to do :lol: :-? :shock: :o
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1986
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by 1986 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm146 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X 1 . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


yes! im glad he didn't play s12
im alive, well almost alive, it cost me two moves so im still not
where i want to be as far as the center goes but im in the game :)
standing still means going backwards
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