Slightly strange move - seems like a waste of a ko threat, at best. Nothing to think about here, so I can put off my last desparate attempts to get back in this game for a little while yet.

this is sente, & it makes the top a little more interesting

Huh? Well, I might have missed something of course, but I don't think that's even sente - it's just throwing another dead stone at me and giving me sente into the bargain. N18 has 4 liberties to white's 3, and I can't see any move on the left that works for white either. So this could be my golden chance to get back into this game. And if I have missed something and white can now kill my top group, at least I can resign soon and with a clear conscience

So, where should I play with the whole board to choose from? I know I keep going on about R2, but on reflection I think this hane is bigger (R2 threatens to capture a single white stone in gote, so I don't think white should respond to it). H7 for white would be big, and probably sente too. I'm not sure if this move is sente or not, but it's big enough that it has to be worth a try. I don't fear the crosscut, as I can, at the very least, extend to H5 in sente and then capture the cutting stone. Instead, I expect white to block at H5, and then we get into a fight that I've not tried to read seriously yet - the struggle for sente here could be as big as that for points. Whatever happens, it's complications inside white's sphere of influence, which is what I want and need

hump i made a mistake, i should have played there first
..... I'm mad at myself for that one....
its not looking to good for white but I'm not going out just yet

Perhaps I just don't care enough about this game any more, since messing up in the upper right, but I can't seem to resist opportunities to make things messy I do think this double hane is at least acceptable, though - the point is that, if white cuts at either of the available points, after I get H6 out of atari white is still going to have to defend my threated double atari at G5. And I think that in either case I can capture the cutting stone, although, as always, I may have misread.

The strongest resistance for white is probably just to defend. Then I am definitely going to need to defend myself (I am not yet sure of the best point to do that at), so will end in gote; but compared with a few moves ago I'll have already reduced white's territory some way, with scope for more in the future. I don't yet feel I'm back in with a particularly good chance in the game, but I could be if white makes a mistake or two from this point (I guess I really mean a mistake or two more than I do

I do wonder what the point of was now, though. I'm sure he wouldn't have played it unless he at least thought it was sente, so why hasn't he followed it up? (I still can't see a killer followup.) Either he decided I would respond to his latest move so he could go back and play whatever he was planning, or he has since realised he misread. I wonder which, but guess I'll find out soon

I note that the observer comments have dried up lately - probably because everyone has lost interest and is wondering why I haven't resigned yet

If the double-hane works, you can play it,
but it's much more work (more reading):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O
$$ | . . O . X X X . . . . .
$$ | . O O . X O O X . . . .
$$ | X X O X . . . O 1 . . .
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . .
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O .
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]

Otherwise, the atari-atari is OK;
less work, or if you're very unsure about the double-hane:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O
$$ | . . O . X X X . . . . .
$$ | . O O . X O O X 5 . . .
$$ | X X O X . 2 1 O 3 . . .
$$ | . . X O O O . 4 . , . .
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O .
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]

Please count before you resign

I really don't know what robinz deal is. I counted a few moves ago (after the upper right was settled and white managed to save his group) an it was pretty much dead even (within komi, which is dead even at our level) And that was assuming that white would get a significant portion of the lower side which black now has successfully reduced. What are your counts? And why does robinz constantly think it's time to resign when he's ahead?

Don't worry, I'm not about to resign in the next few moves (unless of course I have misread something and a largish group of mine gets killed). In fact, in the last couple of moves I feel I have started to come back - although I don't know if it will be enough for me to win.

I have actually been counting every so often, although I haven't put my conclusions on here. But, since you prompt me to, here's how I see it. The following figures for sizes of territories are, I realise, all on the low side - it's because I'm only counting points that are definitely going to be territory, whichever way the endgame gets played out.

Black has:

- 3 captured stones already
- 7 in the lower left
- 9 on top
- 6 in the lower right
- 17 on the right
- 38 points (including prisoners) on the right
Total 70, which will probably end up being 80-85 by the time the game is played to the end.

EDIT: I just realised these actually total 80, which makes things closer than I thought

White has bigger areas, so it's even harder to be precise, but I make about 50 in the upper left on its own. There will also be some number more in the upper right, some other small number in the centre (certainly including 4 from my dead M15). And of course the bottom, which, even counting for things looking better for me in the last few moves than they did before, I surely can't keep to below 20 (and is more likely to be 30+). And let's not forget 6.5 komi too.

This seems to indicate that, at best, I'm going to lose by about 10 points Funny, I assumed your comment was trying to say that I wasn't actually behind (or at least not by much), the count you prompted me to do has had the opposite effect...

I guess I'll let things settle down a bit in this region of the board and then try to count a bit better, but based on what I've just said, I don't see much hope - unless I can pull of some sort of outrageous kill down here... (saving F17 would be another option, and equally implausible to me)

The double hane looks like it is worth the extra reading (naturally I have not done it! ). The double hane and double atari are not equivalent here. Black does not want to just capture the two White stones and is much more interested in H4 than G5. For example...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O
$$ | . . O . X X X 3 . . . .
$$ | . O O . X O O X 2 4 . .
$$ | X X O X . 8 6 O 1 . . .
$$ | . . X O O O 7 5 . , . .
$$ | X X X O X O . . 9 . O .
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------[/go]

This looks like at worst a seki, so White can't reasonably expect to cut Black off.

Yes, if it works, do it!

this is the only move right here, smartgo has me down by 25 points
so now its all about fighting spirit

Did you two agree on the use of score estimators beforehand?
Also, all the spaces in front of your $$ messed up your last diagram.

You know I forgot all about that I pm'd him about it thanks for pointing it out I never would have thought about it, I just use it for keeping a copy of my game on the iPhone Thanks

OK, he cut then. I've no choice here (at least if I want to be consistent), so I await with interest to see what he's planning next. It occurs to me that he may not defend against my double atari, as I probably only get 2 stones out of it. But I'll probably still take it if he lets me.

OK,

now that we got that settled it turns out we both have been using the score estimator this whole time

we didn't even consider being improper so everything is still good

except this board position for white,

here is my thinking for this move

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm142 Prisoner Count
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X 4 3 . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O 5 . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X 2 . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . 1 , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

White is being too optimistic, I think.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm142 Prisoner Count
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 8 7 O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . 3 6 . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X 2 . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . 1 4 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . 5 . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I seem to have spent a lot of time in this game lately responding to ataris

My first thought of course was to play G5, but in the following, which I assume would follow:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm143 Prisoner Count
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . 3 1 O X 2 . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

not only have I merely captured 2 stones in gote, I've given white a ponnuki and strengthened his area against any further reductions. Whereas now, if white protects against the double atari then I capture the J6 stone in a net while encroaching hard onto white's territory to the right - while if, as I'm sure is better, white keeps that stone alive, not only do I still have the double atari (when J5 will probably die but will not yet be captured, thus giving me more aji to work with), but I can see some other tempting options as well (although to the best of my brief reading of them, none work yet - but that's what aji's all about, isn't it? )

I guess this is a slightly less standard example of "add a second stone and sacrifice both", although usually that applies to a stone on the third line. But the logic feels similar - and I might not even have to sacrifice the 2 stones, depending on how the play goes.

change of plans i got a evil plan! HA HA HA

i got the idea from understanding pro games yesterday
but i can make use of these dead stones
there is still a little aji to exploit down there
i need to strength s11 first because that Atari messes up everything right now
Life - maybe it depends on his response

diagrams later

:shock:

I'll be honest, that move has made me lose all sense of equilibrium. It's clear that 1986 and I are just not playing even remotely the same game any more, and I can only hope that I'm not the one who's gone insane...

But the way I see it, he's just tenukied - and from an area that I think is pretty large compared to what else remains on the board - in order to die in gote somewhere else. This is why one of us must be imagining things, because there's clearly no way that 1986 would choose to do that. Indeed, even if the move is sente, but still dies, there'd be no reason to play it (it gains him no points, so it'd be a pure waste of a ko threat), so he probably thinks this even lives. As I've already said, I think it dies in gote - and I'm even pretty sure of this; there doesn't seem to be a lot to read. So, one of us has had a catastrophic reading fail, and I can only hope it's not me (My confidence is not helped by the lack of posts since that of 1986 - if there really was a reading error that big, I'd have thought someone would pounce on it...)

I know I should always respect my opponent - and 1986 has certainly done enough in this game to make me respect his play, from the point of view that he's clearly at least as strong as me, on average (not that that says very much ). But I feel I have to "disrespect" his last move, because my reading tells me that I don't have to respond to it. If I'm wrong there, I will lose in rather embarrassing fashion, but I really shouldn't be doubting my judgement - even if trusting it leads to an expensive mistake this time.

So, I'm ignoring his move to play where I want. As I said in my last comment, I think this net is pretty big, so I've played it.

The craziest thing about this situation (going back to the right hand side) is that, if he thinks he's alive now, he'll probably take my tenuki as acknowledgement of that fact. I hope we don't reach the end of the game disagreeing about the status of a large group - that would be a very 20k-ish thing to do

yes! im glad he didn't play s12
im alive, well almost alive, it cost me two moves so im still not
where i want to be as far as the center goes but im in the game