I've read Kageyama's Lessons in the Fundamentals of go ...

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:21 am

lefuet wrote:two ladder problems I found some time ago: ...

Nice problems, I did them both correctly but I would not say "effortlessly". Maybe I need to do more practice. Also, I misread a simple ladder in a tournament game last weekend (I was short on time and already in a losing position, though).

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:50 am

lefuet wrote:two ladder problems I found some time ago:

$$c can you capture the cutting stones?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c can you capture the cutting stones? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

$$c can you capture the two stones?
$$ -----------------
$$ | . X . O O . . |
$$ | . X O . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O |
$$ | . . . , . . . |
$$ | O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X Q . . . . |
$$ | . X Q X X . . |
$$ ----------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c can you capture the two stones? $$ ----------------- $$ | . X . O O . . | $$ | . X O . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . O | $$ | . . . , . . . | $$ | O . . . . . . | $$ | . X Q . . . . | $$ | . X Q X X . . | $$ ----------------[/go]

Thanks for these problems. I liked the second one better a bit, but both were cool.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:57 am

Here is a nice one from Sakata's "Tesuji and Anti-suji of Go".

I think that it also comes from a classical collection.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Black to play $$ ------------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . 2 7 . . . . $$ | . . . . 3 1 X O . X . . $$ | . . . X 6 X O X . , . . $$ | . . . . . 5 O X . . . . $$ | . . O . . . 4 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

ethanb · Post by **ethanb** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:59 am

tchan001 wrote:For me, ladders which bend are really difficult to read correctly

You probably already have a copy of The Treasure-Chest Enigma in your collection? The essays in the first half are great for motivation, but the second half is nothing but bending ladder problems. I used to practice reading those and eventually started finding them in my games. I should look at it again...

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:17 am

Bill Spight wrote:Here is a nice one from Sakata's "Tesuji and Anti-suji of Go". I think that it also comes from a classical collection.

$$W Black to play
$$ ------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . 2 7 . . . .
$$ | . . . . 3 1 X O . X . .
$$ | . . . X 6 X O X . , . .
$$ | . . . . . 5 O X . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Black to play $$ ------------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . 2 7 . . . . $$ | . . . . 3 1 X O . X . . $$ | . . . X 6 X O X . , . . $$ | . . . . . 5 O X . . . . $$ | . . O . . . 4 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

My solution:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ------------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . $$ | . . . . O O X O . X . . $$ | . . . X X X O X . , . . $$ | . . . . 1 O O X . . . . $$ | . . O 5 4 2 X . . . . . $$ | . . 9 8 6 3 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . 7 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Now white can capture, but it does him no good as long as he only has one liberty at 'a'

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . $$ | . . . . O O X O . X . . $$ | . . . X X X O X . , . . $$ | . . . 1 X O O X . . . . $$ | . . O X O O X . . . . . $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . $$ | . . . a X . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . $$ | . . . . O O X O . X . . $$ | . 8 6 X X X O X . , . . $$ | . 7 5 1 X O O X . . . . $$ | . 4 O 3 O O X . . . . . $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . $$ | . . . 2 X . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

So he keeps trying to get more liberties:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . $$ | . . . . O O X O . X . . $$ | . . . X X X O X . , . . $$ | . . . . X O O X . . . . $$ | . . O X O O X . . . . . $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 1 X . . . . . . . $$ | . 6 5 3 4 . . . . . . . $$ | . 9 7 X . . . . . , . . $$ | . 0 8 . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

...which does not work either.

Thus the final position, when white streches out the doomed position as far as it will go, is a double ladder:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . $$ | . . . . O O X O . X . . $$ | . . . X X X O X . , . . $$ | . . . 3 X O O X . . . . $$ | . . O X O O X . . . . . $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . $$ | 2 X O O X . . . . . . . $$ | 1 O O X . . . . . , . . $$ | 4 X X . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . $$ | 0 . . . O O X O . X . . $$ | 9 6 4 X X X O X . , . . $$ | 7 5 3 O X O O X . . . . $$ | 8 2 O 1 O O X . . . . . $$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . $$ | X X O O X . . . . . . . $$ | O O O X . . . . . , . . $$ | X X X . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Addendum:

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:51 am

lefuet wrote:...
$$c can you capture the two stones?
$$ -----------------
$$ | . X . O O . . |
$$ | . X O . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O |
$$ | . . . , . . . |
$$ | O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X Q . . . . |
$$ | . X Q X X . . |
$$ ----------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c can you capture the two stones? $$ ----------------- $$ | . X . O O . . | $$ | . X O . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . O | $$ | . . . , . . . | $$ | O . . . . . . | $$ | . X Q . . . . | $$ | . X Q X X . . | $$ ----------------[/go]

Start with a conventional ladder:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ ----------------- $$ | . X . O O . . | $$ | . X O . . O . | $$ | . . . . 9 . O | $$ | . . . 5 8 0 . | $$ | O . 1 4 6 7 . | $$ | . X Q 2 3 . . | $$ | . X Q X X . . | $$ ----------------[/go]

Pause for a throw-in to keep him short of liberties:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ ----------------- $$ | . X . O O . 4 | $$ | . X O . . O 3 | $$ | . . . . X 1 O | $$ | . . . X O O 2 | $$ | O . X O O X . | $$ | . X O O X . . | $$ | . X O X X . . | $$ ----------------[/go]

More liberty removal:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ ----------------- $$ | . X . O O 4 O | $$ | . X O . 3 O 2 | $$ | . . . . X X O | $$ | . . . X O O O | $$ | O . X O O X 1 | $$ | . X O O X . . | $$ | . X O X X . . | $$ ----------------[/go]

Now back to the ladder, but now going the other way:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ ----------------- $$ | . X 1 O O O O | $$ | . X O 2 X O O | $$ | . . 4 3 X X O | $$ | . . . X O O O | $$ | O . X O O X X | $$ | . X O O X . . | $$ | . X O X X . . | $$ ----------------[/go]

Conveniently saving the stones from the previous ladder:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ ----------------- $$ | . X X O O O O | $$ | . X O O X O O | $$ | 3 2 O X X X O | $$ | 6 4 1 X O O O | $$ | O 5 X O O X X | $$ | . X O O X . . | $$ | . X O X X . . | $$ ----------------[/go]

xed_over · Post by **xed_over** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:51 pm

tapir wrote:I would like to know how long people need to actually read a ladder across the board. Can you do it in under 30, 20, 15 or 10 seconds? (Honest answers are appreciated.) Are you actually reading ladders in blitz games? How long does it take if you want to resist against a ladder-breaker in a way that the ladder still works?

It might take me only a few seconds (few being within the 10-30 sec range), but it feels like an eternity, so if the clock is running, I usually just give up reading.

honest answer -- I'm too lazy to read ladders

cyclops · Post by **cyclops** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:13 pm

The first three in this thread I solved mentally and checked them by playing them out in drago. The other two I solved by playing them out. Somehow I get too impatient too soon to solve them mentally.

karaklis · Post by **karaklis** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:22 pm

After I had read Kageyama's Lessons over two years ago, I tried to apply reading ladders with some success. It won me some tournament games when I was around 15-16k.

As for the speed of reading ladders it strongly depends on the ladder itself. In the very most of the cases, you just "see" if the ladder works or not. If a move-by-move reading is necessary, I can read about three moves in two seconds when there are no enemy stones and about 1-2 seconds per move when there are.

If the ladder is very complicated as in one of the examples, and damezumari is involved, I usually fail to read the ladder.

Dusk Eagle · Post by **Dusk Eagle** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:28 am

Speaking of misreading ladders, I committed this sin in a game for the first time yesterday. I thought the ladder worked after his peep at :b74:

, until he played :b76:

and I realized I was wrong. However, I decided to go with it anyway and it all worked out okay

. Though he probably could have won if he had played H12 anytime after white 103.

Life In 19x19

I've read Kageyama's Lessons in the Fundamentals of go ...

and...

Re: I've read Kageyama's Lessons in the Fundamentals of go .

Re: I've read Kageyama's Lessons in the Fundamentals of go .

Re: I've read Kageyama's Lessons in the Fundamentals of go .

Re: I've read Kageyama's Lessons in the Fundamentals of go .

Re: I've read Kageyama's Lessons in the Fundamentals of go .

Re: I've read Kageyama's Lessons in the Fundamentals of go .

Re: I've read Kageyama's Lessons in the Fundamentals of go .

Re: I've read Kageyama's Lessons in the Fundamentals of go .

Re: I've read Kageyama's Lessons in the Fundamentals of go .

Re: I've read Kageyama's Lessons in the Fundamentals of go .