I think it's safe to say that all Go players have, at some time or another, experienced a "bad beat", a poker terminology for a situation where a person who has a vastly superior hand over his opponent(s) loses anyways, despite the odds. So the analogous situation for Go is where a person who has a vastly superior position/major lead over his opponent loses anyways. These kind of games also tend to be more memorable than others (0.5 points come a close second?).

So what are some of your bad beat stories? If it was played online, be sure to post the SGF if you still have it!

I'll start with a recent one (less than a few weeks ago). I was playing an online game against aguilar1 (Fernando Aguilar) in a 0.5 komi game where I took Black on one of my 5d accounts.

Up to move 88 things were looking okay for me and I was holding up on my own. I didn't make any major mistakes, but did play a few slack moves here and there so I was behind by a teeny bit. Sirens went off on my 88th move though, which I played on the last second of my byoyomi period. It went from this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Move 88
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O . X . . . . . X . . X . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X X X . . . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . . . O X X O O O X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O . . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O . X . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X X O O O O X . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . . X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . O . . . . . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...to this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Few moves later
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O . X . . . . . X . . X . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X X X . . . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . . . O X X O O O X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O . . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O . X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X O X X . . . . O . W . |
$$ | . X X X X X O O O O X . . X . O . X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . . X . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . O . . O . O . . . . . X O O . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...which had me sink further behind, bad news since endgame is my weakest area. Ah, but that's only the beginning. As we entered endgame, I tried to play more efficiently to try and make up for my losses on the lower right. I was also a bit, again as they say in poker, "on tilt". Needless to say, I neglected an important group and ended up in a situation where my central group was in major danger:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Move 138
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . X X X . X O O O . |
$$ | . X X X . . . O X X O O O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O . . O O O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X X X O . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , O O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . . W . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O . X X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X O X X O O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X O X X O . . . O . O . |
$$ | . X X X X X O O O O X . O X . O . X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . . X . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . O . . O . O . . O X . X O O . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So not only was I ~10+ points behind, but now I was about to die extravagantly with 150+ people watching. Fantastic. In fact, all White had to do was let me live in gote and the game was his anyways, I guarantee it. /men's warehouse

I'll leave the SGF here so you can see the conclusion, kibitz and my ID removed :


So tell me your stories .

In your defense, Fernando Aguilar does like playing this way and going killing stuff

This accounts for a large number of my games

For example, I'd made a mess of one of my DGS games, my opponent got greedy, handed me a 15-20 lead by letting me invade his only decent territory, and then in trying to play an efficient endgame I totally forgot my group at the bottom needed defending if it couldn't get out of trouble through shortage of liberties. My opponent hadn't forgot, and just killed it!

Being avid poker player, I'm very familiar with Bad Beats

However, I find it odd to use the term with Go (or any other games with complete information), since there is no element of luck involved. If you lose from a winning position, you have yourself to blame for it, whereas in Poker Bad Beat refers to unlucky cards (usually losing after getting all-in as a significant favorite) and not your own bad play.

_________________
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Sometimes I wonder. If I had read your post a year ago I'd wholeheartedly agree that there is absolutely no element of luck whatsoever in Go. However, now I leave myself with a bit of skepticism.

In the chaos after 138, one interesting comment I read in the kibitz was "let's see how well b read this out.". Did I read it all out? No sir. My aji senses were tingling, and I knew we were both at the entrance of a dark tunnel once he decided to commit and go for the kill. For me to somehow end up victorious at the end of the tunnel...to me, feels like a situation where luck was involved (but in a different sense than poker).

...or maybe I need to hurry up and sleep. But hopefully this will bring up even more interesting discussion.

We have discussed similar view's many times over in the poker community. Of course, if you like, you can consider that e.g. 100 meters sprint has an element of luck - Usain Bolt may have a really bad day or even an injury. But I'd like to stick to more restricted definition.

_________________
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Oh, ... you bet.

I played White and started quite okay-ish, granting my oponent a side and me a moyo, which he kind of invaded:

[img]http://www.letsshareit.net/files/53/Go1.png[/img]


I killed and he invaded again:

[img]http://www.letsshareit.net/files/53/Go2.png[/img]


I completely screwed things up:

[img]http://www.letsshareit.net/files/53/Go3.png[/img]


..and oversaw a double-atari later on:

[img]http://www.letsshareit.net/files/53/Go4.png[/img]


In the end, I won by 0.5 points because he didn't fought out a Ko.



Luck? For sure!

_________________
My "guide" to become stronger in Go

I had to dig this one out... Actually I wanted to post this game in the Embarassing-Go-Moments-Thread... Anyway I was Black and screwed up a won game the worst way imaginable. Enjoy


[img]http://www.letsshareit.net/files/53/Go1_2.png[/img]


High chance of winning.


[img]http://www.letsshareit.net/files/53/Go2_2.png[/img]


In my opinion, won game.


[img]http://www.letsshareit.net/files/53/Go3_2.png[/img]


First big (_B_I_G_) screw up, but still ahead.


[img]http://www.letsshareit.net/files/53/Go4_2.png[/img]


30 sec SD for me / 10 minutes for my oponent.


[img]http://www.letsshareit.net/files/53/Go5_2.png[/img]


Enormous screw up, resignation.

_________________
My "guide" to become stronger in Go

This is a game that I played a few years ago, when I was 2 dan. My opponent was 6 dan.



Of course, given the strength difference, that's not an impossible position to come back from, but still

That's an evil joseki that one Herman

Another interesting variation of that joseki that's full of twists and turns is this one, though this variation is not joseki, but a very complicated hamete. I've played it quite a lot a year ago or so, but because there are so many variations where both sides can easily screw up, I think I've had it blow up and destroy my position more often than it did my opponent's :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X 1 5 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O 2 X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . . O 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'd be interested in the correct refutation of that, Herman.

_________________
A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.

I'm white. One of my friends (1k) commented on this game(before I lost) "I puked a little"

I killed him yeah

Arghhhhh. Now he is ahead by 190 Points :'(

_________________
Sanity is for the weak.

I think the correct play from here is:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 8 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 0 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O O X 5 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X X 3 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X X X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is the variation that was given in Kogo's when I looked it up two days ago. However, I've also had a 6d friend say that the refutation was at 'a' in the first diagram above, which threatens to net one of the two groups. However, when another friend of mine and me analyzed it later, we were unable to find how it worked if white played his next move to save his five-stone group, so I'm not sure that he was correct.

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.

As I've mentioned earlier, I don't know the hamete very well and have only scratched its surface. However, a while back I have seen Lee Hajin 3p go over this hamete very extensively with a friend of mine at the SGC after I played it on him (lol), and I'm pretty sure she never suggested at 'a' in your diagram for a move, so maybe that's a sign that it's not a refutation? I'm sure there's still a wealth of variations for that move though, so no disrespect to your 6d friend and I still reserve judgment - just mentioning an observation.

I've been told that 7 is also correct.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc a and b are miai?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . b . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X X X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hmm...maybe I overlooked when she went over it . Ugh, and I had this excellent KGS lecture from willzhang when he covered this hamete too, can't find it though. If I have time, I might do some KGS archive digging cause now I'm curious.

Here is when willzhang went over it (it was in summer '07), stripped out trash kibitz and left only willzhang and a few others' comment in there, which isn't much but I think there was audio so perhaps that's why there weren't so many texts from willzhang:


Pinpingho, who I don't know much about but seems he's AGA 6d, also covered it just prior to willzhang's lecture - stripped out the variations that didn't pertain to the hamete, but taking out all but the relevant kibitz would take too long since a lot of variations were covered so I just left that alone:



In any case, the empty triangle move wasn't brought up in either demonstrations. Not dismissing it, but just curious if you guys know of a textbook or a more authoritative lecture/demo on the hamete that contained the move.

Jesus, I'm gonna have nightmares you guys. I don't ever want to be a dan player if it means facing hamete like that...

_________________
KGS 4 kyu - Game Archive - Keyboard Otaku

I know what joseki I'm aiming for if I ever play against fwiffo

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.

I told you it's an evil joseki. It's why as White I always fix one of the cuts instead of descending. It's simpler that way

Horrible yucky thing!