Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice
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topazg
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Kirby
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Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice
I like it, too. However, I do feel that the top left corner is a large point.
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Mezzanyne
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Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice
Well I've always learned that in dealing with variations I've never seen before, to remember the conditions under which I made my moves. I was fine with him running along the third line as long as the corner was prone to reducing...and while its still not completely sealed yet, it's one move away, and I'll have a ton of catching up to do if he gets that AND the side. So, I'll take the side. Plus now protecting the corner is a sweet point for me...
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice
Mezzanyne wrote:... I was fine with him running along the third line... I'll have a ton of catching up to do if he gets that AND the side. ...
Ummm...no you won't have to catch up. He will. Generally, when your opponent crawls along the third line and you march along the fourth, it is better for you - especially in the beginning when the board is wide open. He gets 2 point of teritory for every stone, and you get 2+ points of influence for every stone of yours.
Ok, it might not be clear profit for you, not as obvious as his profit, but your wall is worth a bunch. It is tricky to use it: you have to make sure that he doesn't sneak arount the ends and neutralize it, and you have to find a fight someplace to direct toward your wall. But the wall is worth more.
If you started a game between two pros with a board like this:
...and invited them to sit down and play it from there, and told white that it was his move, his first move would probably be to resign.
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Kirby
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Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice
Joaz Banbeck wrote:Mezzanyne wrote:... I was fine with him running along the third line... I'll have a ton of catching up to do if he gets that AND the side. ...
Ummm...no you won't have to catch up. He will. Generally, when your opponent crawls along the third line and you march along the fourth, it is better for you - especially in the beginning when the board is wide open. He gets 2 point of teritory for every stone, and you get 2+ points of influence for every stone of yours.
Ok, it might not be clear profit for you, not as obvious as his profit, but your wall is worth a bunch. It is tricky to use it: you have to make sure that he doesn't sneak arount the ends and neutralize it, and you have to find a fight someplace to direct toward your wall. But the wall is worth more.
If you started a game between two pros with a board like this:
...and told them to play from there, and told white that it was his move, his first move would probably be to resign.
I typically like playing 4th line more than 3rd line, but this example is a bit biased toward the "outside approach", as there is more room for action on the rest of the board.
A different example might be:
In this case, I might be inclined to take my chances with white...
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice
That kind of misses the issue. You've given white 8 more stones, and the tremendous tactical advantage of having turned the corner on his opponent's wall.
Mezzanyne was looking at the simple issue of 3rd rank stones vs 4th rank stones.
Mezzanyne was looking at the simple issue of 3rd rank stones vs 4th rank stones.
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Kirby
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Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice
Joaz Banbeck wrote:...That kind of misses the issue.
I don't think it misses the issue. It illustrates that, if you get all of the third line territory, you have more points than your opponent. If you want to put in more stones for black, then add them to the center.
Joaz Banbeck wrote:...
Mezzanyne was looking at the simple issue of 3rd rank stones vs 4th rank stones.
Yes. The example I provided showed all 3rd rank stones against all 4th rank stones.
Like I said, I typically value plays on "the outside", but if you are speaking in a super-general sense, I would say that 3rd line territory can be of similar value to 4th line influence.
I think that the line really lies between 3rd and 4th line, though. If you are trading 2nd line territory for a 3rd line outside wall, the wall is probably almost always greater.
If you are going 5th line vs. 6th line, you can probably live inside, so the 5th line is probably not "territory" in a lot of cases (though if it is, good for you!).
I think 3rd and 4th line strikes a good balance. That's why a lot of josekis have stones on the 3rd and 4th lines, IMO.
If the josekis always favored the outside, they wouldn't be joseki.
If I have to summarize, I think that "outside" plays provide future benefit, and "inside" plays grab immediate benefit.
And, as seen in the example I provided, if you get all of the third line territory, you have more points than the person going for "the center".
So the question becomes, "If I give him this territory now, do I get enough benefit to be ahead later"? If so, take the exchange. Making this judgement is difficult to do, and cannot be simplified to "4th line wall > 3rd line territory", IMO.
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Kirby
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Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice
I guess all I'm really trying to say is that you can't always say that a 4th line wall is better than 3rd line territory.
You've got to weigh the balance of giving him territory now vs. your future potential benefit from the wall you've created.
Also, I do think that you'll have an advantage as black, but I'd be willing to try to play white here on the forum with this board:
You've got to weigh the balance of giving him territory now vs. your future potential benefit from the wall you've created.
Also, I do think that you'll have an advantage as black, but I'd be willing to try to play white here on the forum with this board:
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Mezzanyne
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Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice
I didn't mean that the wall alone was worth less than the territory, but that if he got a solid 30-40 points on the right AND a sizable territory on the top side I'd be putting all my hopes into that one wall; and I also have no other stones geared towards the center at this time, so its a flimsy bet.
That was my thought process anyway.
That was my thought process anyway.
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Numsgil
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Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice
Let's look at it a different way:
What board size comes closest to balancing the territory of the 3rd line and the influence of the 4th line?
let n be the board size:
3rd line territory = n*n - (n-4)*(n-4)
4th line "territory" in the center = (n-8)*(n-8)
Set the two equal to each other, and we get a board size of 20. Assuming we want an odd board size so there's a tengen (which seems important for aesthetic reasons, and possibly to break mirror go symmetry) we should consider either 19 or 21. Of the two, 19 has a "score" of -15 (favoring the edges), and 21 has a "score" of 17 (favoring influence). So 19x19 is closer to even.
So we can think of the 19x19 board size as being the best board size to exactly balance influence and territory. So from a purely theory-crafting point of view, trading 3rd line territory for 4th line influence should generally be an equal exchange, though maybe slightly favoring the territorial player. And more to the point, the board size was (probably, given the math) specifically chosen to make this true.
Of course one or another is usually better in practice; it depends on the board at large.
What board size comes closest to balancing the territory of the 3rd line and the influence of the 4th line?
let n be the board size:
3rd line territory = n*n - (n-4)*(n-4)
4th line "territory" in the center = (n-8)*(n-8)
Set the two equal to each other, and we get a board size of 20. Assuming we want an odd board size so there's a tengen (which seems important for aesthetic reasons, and possibly to break mirror go symmetry) we should consider either 19 or 21. Of the two, 19 has a "score" of -15 (favoring the edges), and 21 has a "score" of 17 (favoring influence). So 19x19 is closer to even.
So we can think of the 19x19 board size as being the best board size to exactly balance influence and territory. So from a purely theory-crafting point of view, trading 3rd line territory for 4th line influence should generally be an equal exchange, though maybe slightly favoring the territorial player. And more to the point, the board size was (probably, given the math) specifically chosen to make this true.
Of course one or another is usually better in practice; it depends on the board at large.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice
Kirby wrote:I guess all I'm really trying to say is that you can't always say that a 4th line wall is better than 3rd line territory.
You've got to weigh the balance of giving him territory now vs. your future potential benefit from the wall you've created.
Also, I do think that you'll have an advantage as black, but I'd be willing to try to play white here on the forum with this board:
Problem is, Black has a wall with stones below the fourth line.
I think that this setup, sans komi, still favors White.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice
Kirby wrote:A different example might be:
In this case, I might be inclined to take my chances with white...
With an 8 stone handicap, why not?
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Chew Terr
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Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice
There are certainly joseki based on pressing your opponent low and taking influence. On this board, I decided to consolidate my corner rather than try to claim third-line territory,because it seemed to be plenty, here. Here I'm just trying to finish closing my corner in semi-sente by threatening to connect to my lone stone, which would partially split your local stones. I am aiming at D15 and F3. D15 may be biggest here, but I would be content to get either.
As you said,
Mezz wrote:Well I've always learned that in dealing with variations I've never seen before, to remember the conditions under which I made my moves. I was fine with him running along the third line as long as the corner was prone to reducing...and while its still not completely sealed yet, it's one move away, and I'll have a ton of catching up to do if he gets that AND the side. So, I'll take the side. Plus now protecting the corner is a sweet point for me...
Yes, here keeping me low would probably be reasonable with the option to reduce the corner. Obviously I didn't like the sound of that, so I chose the path I took. However, your responses seem reasonable, and I wouldn't say that you've really made a mistake yet. Certainly not a large one. And you've definitely pinpointed: the top left enclosure is now huge for you. You seem to be doing fairly well at eyeballing general large areas/directions to play.
As far as the third/fourth lines, as Kirby says, it (like everything in go) is very dependent on the situation. Early on, influence is huge because there's so much room to use it, but in the endgame, influence either doesn't exist, or it's already resolved. If all of the corners and sides were resolved and the center was neutral, a fourth-line wall isn't going to buy you much. So, like you said, a fourth-line wall here seems like a reasonable goal, but in other situations it won't be.
As an aside, I'm not convinced this move is bigger than D15, but I feel weird not taking it. And if it IS sente, it's 100% worth it.
edit: Thank you all very much for your help, by the way!
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Kirby
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Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice
Bill Spight wrote:Kirby wrote:A different example might be:
In this case, I might be inclined to take my chances with white...
With an 8 stone handicap, why not?
I already mentioned to Joaz that I was simply illustrating purely "3rd line vs. 4th line", and suggested that you can add the 8 stones in the middle if you'd like:
Anyway, I think the point still remains that getting territory on the third line can be comparable to having influence.
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Kirby
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Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice
Bill Spight wrote:...
I think that this setup, sans komi, still favors White.
I'd like to play someone around my rank with this board, just for fun.
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