That kind of misses the issue. You've given white 8 more stones, and the tremendous tactical advantage of having turned the corner on his opponent's wall.

Mezzanyne was looking at the simple issue of 3rd rank stones vs 4th rank stones.

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

I don't think it misses the issue. It illustrates that, if you get all of the third line territory, you have more points than your opponent. If you want to put in more stones for black, then add them to the center.



Yes. The example I provided showed all 3rd rank stones against all 4th rank stones.

Like I said, I typically value plays on "the outside", but if you are speaking in a super-general sense, I would say that 3rd line territory can be of similar value to 4th line influence.

I think that the line really lies between 3rd and 4th line, though. If you are trading 2nd line territory for a 3rd line outside wall, the wall is probably almost always greater.

If you are going 5th line vs. 6th line, you can probably live inside, so the 5th line is probably not "territory" in a lot of cases (though if it is, good for you!).

I think 3rd and 4th line strikes a good balance. That's why a lot of josekis have stones on the 3rd and 4th lines, IMO.

If the josekis always favored the outside, they wouldn't be joseki.

If I have to summarize, I think that "outside" plays provide future benefit, and "inside" plays grab immediate benefit.

And, as seen in the example I provided, if you get all of the third line territory, you have more points than the person going for "the center".

So the question becomes, "If I give him this territory now, do I get enough benefit to be ahead later"? If so, take the exchange. Making this judgement is difficult to do, and cannot be simplified to "4th line wall > 3rd line territory", IMO.

_________________
be immersed

I guess all I'm really trying to say is that you can't always say that a 4th line wall is better than 3rd line territory.

You've got to weigh the balance of giving him territory now vs. your future potential benefit from the wall you've created.

Also, I do think that you'll have an advantage as black, but I'd be willing to try to play white here on the forum with this board:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
be immersed

I didn't mean that the wall alone was worth less than the territory, but that if he got a solid 30-40 points on the right AND a sizable territory on the top side I'd be putting all my hopes into that one wall; and I also have no other stones geared towards the center at this time, so its a flimsy bet.

That was my thought process anyway.

Let's look at it a different way:

What board size comes closest to balancing the territory of the 3rd line and the influence of the 4th line?

let n be the board size:

3rd line territory = n*n - (n-4)*(n-4)
4th line "territory" in the center = (n-8)*(n-8)

Set the two equal to each other, and we get a board size of 20. Assuming we want an odd board size so there's a tengen (which seems important for aesthetic reasons, and possibly to break mirror go symmetry) we should consider either 19 or 21. Of the two, 19 has a "score" of -15 (favoring the edges), and 21 has a "score" of 17 (favoring influence). So 19x19 is closer to even.

So we can think of the 19x19 board size as being the best board size to exactly balance influence and territory. So from a purely theory-crafting point of view, trading 3rd line territory for 4th line influence should generally be an equal exchange, though maybe slightly favoring the territorial player. And more to the point, the board size was (probably, given the math) specifically chosen to make this true.

Of course one or another is usually better in practice; it depends on the board at large.

_________________
1k KGS

Problem is, Black has a wall with stones below the fourth line.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X X X X X X X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O O O O O O O O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think that this setup, sans komi, still favors White.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

With an 8 stone handicap, why not?

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . O X . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There are certainly joseki based on pressing your opponent low and taking influence. On this board, I decided to consolidate my corner rather than try to claim third-line territory,because it seemed to be plenty, here. Here I'm just trying to finish closing my corner in semi-sente by threatening to connect to my lone stone, which would partially split your local stones. I am aiming at D15 and F3. D15 may be biggest here, but I would be content to get either.

As you said,
Yes, here keeping me low would probably be reasonable with the option to reduce the corner. Obviously I didn't like the sound of that, so I chose the path I took. However, your responses seem reasonable, and I wouldn't say that you've really made a mistake yet. Certainly not a large one. And you've definitely pinpointed: the top left enclosure is now huge for you. You seem to be doing fairly well at eyeballing general large areas/directions to play.

As far as the third/fourth lines, as Kirby says, it (like everything in go) is very dependent on the situation. Early on, influence is huge because there's so much room to use it, but in the endgame, influence either doesn't exist, or it's already resolved. If all of the corners and sides were resolved and the center was neutral, a fourth-line wall isn't going to buy you much. So, like you said, a fourth-line wall here seems like a reasonable goal, but in other situations it won't be.

As an aside, I'm not convinced this move is bigger than D15, but I feel weird not taking it. And if it IS sente, it's 100% worth it.

edit: Thank you all very much for your help, by the way!

_________________
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].

I already mentioned to Joaz that I was simply illustrating purely "3rd line vs. 4th line", and suggested that you can add the 8 stones in the middle if you'd like:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X X X X X X X X X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X X X . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X X X . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X X . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X X X X X X X X X X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Anyway, I think the point still remains that getting territory on the third line can be comparable to having influence.

_________________
be immersed

I'd like to play someone around my rank with this board, just for fun.

_________________
be immersed

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . O X 4 O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is turning out to be pretty successful so far

I've already committed to that group, so that is indeed sente.

Edit: Also, thank you!!

Your hoary example was debunked in the middle of the last century. By, IIRC, Fujisawa Hideyuki. Yet it refuses to die.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

@Kirby: Nah...no fun shooting fish in a barrel. However, this might be challenging:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...I'd still prefer black here.

@Mezzanyne: There is so much lurking just below the surface, even within the first dozen moves.

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

I'd prefer my 8 stones here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O X . |
$$ | . . O X X X X X X X X X X X X X O X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X X X X X X X X X X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

And here I thought I had a unique idea.

I still haven't really seen any debunking, though. We are talking about 3rd line stones vs. 4th line stones, so I simply constructed a board with 3rd line stones vs. 4th line stones.

I agree that outside influence is useful, but I also think that an example with an empty board having only one wall does not give fair justice to territory, because it is on empty boards where influence really flourishes. The closer you get to the end of the game, the less useful your influence is.

Furthermore, the more third line territory you grab, the harder it is for your opponent to catch up with his influence, since the end of the game gets closer and closer.

Do you happen to recall Hideyuki's argument?

_________________
be immersed

Not really fair, is it? You are going for influence, not territory. Let's compromise:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X X X X X X X X X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X X X X X X X X X X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Anyway, again, this example was originally constructed to show the difference between 3rd line and 4th line.

_________________
be immersed

In a real game, we do not construct walls that stretch for 13 stones or more.

Given that fact, the burden of proof is on the people putting these contrived board positions up. They need to show that there is any reason whatsoever to think that these board positions demonstrate anything about the value of any stones in an actual game.

This isn't rocket science.

P.S. Kirby, I think this contains the debunking. http://senseis.xmp.net/?ClassicalExampl ... eTerritory

_________________
Occupy Babel!

Thanks, hyperpape. That's a very interesting discussion. I also agree that some of these examples are a bit contrived. I do still contend that getting territory has as much merit as getting a wall in many cases. A number of joseki couldn't be called joseki otherwise.

_________________
be immersed

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . O X O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If it's sente once, it's sente again, and perhaps moreso. By the way, I had a quick glance at the book I keep referencing: it seems that we're nailing this joseki. I am pleased with myself for it (my joseki memorization is astoundingly attrocious, typically). However, I think it's really commendable that you've been constructing everything from first principles. This board position is almost identical to the one shown in the book. In that position, Mr. Yang said that black might have a very small advantage because of an edge in territory, but it was small and the game had transitioned from a moyo game to a territory one. That said, I prefer the 3-4 placement in our game to the 4-4 in the example game.

Long story short, you're doing great! If you can pull this off in a real-time game, you'll be playing quite reasonably against sanrensei.

_________________
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . O X O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Thank you!! I've never done an approach like this before. I just hope I follow it up properly...your tenuki after this move will be the real test.

And yeah, still sente.