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Offline robinz
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #441 Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:35 am 
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[go]$$Bcm253 Prisoner Count :w35: :b13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X X O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . O X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . 1 . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . . X O O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . X X O . O X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . X O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X X X O O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I'm very interested in what all these comments, in the very late endgame when the result, although not the margin, is already decided, could be about :)

Anyway, this is 1-point gote, but I think that's what we're down to. The reason it's worth a point - and I must admit that it took me a while to see that any move in this region of the board is worth any points at all - is that white could, had I tenukied (I was going to play F18), play the sente atari at L12, and then played here himself, to give himself a point at K12. I can make it locally a "false eye", but he can't ever be forced to fill it as he is alive on both sides, so it still scores a point for him.

The reason I choose this move instead of F18 - or any other of the remaining 1-point gotes - is that my opponent *might* feel tempted to respond to this one :lol: And perhaps it may be of help in making G14 a point of my territory, although I seriously doubt that will be possible.
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Offline 1986
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #442 Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:58 am 
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[go]$$Wcm254 Prisoner Count :w35: :b13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O 1 . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X X O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . O X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . X . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . . X O O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . X X O . O X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . X O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X X X O O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


im just fillling in the dame now

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Offline robinz
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #443 Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:09 pm 
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[go]$$Bcm255 Prisoner Count :w35: :b13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O 1 X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O O . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X X O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . O X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . X . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . . X O O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . X X O . O X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . X O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X X X O O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


That's worth 0 points, as far as I can tell (O14 was always a point for white). So I'll take another point for myself.
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #444 Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:15 pm 
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@Robinz

robinz wrote:
That's worth 0 points, as far as I can tell (O14 was always a point for white). So I'll take another point for myself.


About 1.5+ points gote actually :)

1 point because if he doesn't, you can get an extra point for P15.
Another 0.5 points because if he doesn't then play P13, you can deprive him of a point by playing there.
And + because there's then a half point ko sitting there.

Bill will I'm sure give values of around half that, but I work in simplified swing values (difference between one player getting there and the other) because I can cope with them quickly :P
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Offline robinz
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #445 Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:40 pm 
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@topazg:

D'oh - I'd missed that P15 gave me a point at Q15 :oops: :oops:

I also hadn't thought of P15 from me as being worth anything, since he then has P13 - so it'd be zero points "in sente", only being sente of course if 1986 deems it worth responding to a "threat" of only 1 point (plus half-point ko). But I kind of see why it's worth "half a point", now, having read some of Bill's explanations of such matters in the past. Did I mention that I don't much like the endgame? :lol:
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Offline 1986
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #446 Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:54 pm 
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[go]$$Wcm256 Prisoner Count :w35: :b13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O O . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X X O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . O X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . X . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . . X O O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . 1 X X X . . X X O . O X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . X O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X X X O O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


alright only a few more moves to go

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Offline EdLee
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Post #447 Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:59 pm 
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Is this the first Malkovich that results with a score? :)

This post by EdLee was liked by 2 people: Kirby, topazg
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Offline Kirby
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Post #448 Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:08 pm 
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EdLee wrote:
Is this the first Malkovich that results with a score? :)


I lost against Magicwand by 1.5 points in this game:
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=484

Though, in general, these games tend to end in resignation, don't they? :-D

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Offline robinz
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #449 Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:10 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm257 Prisoner Count :w35: :b13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O O . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X X O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . O X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . X . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . . X O O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | 1 O X X X . . X X O . O X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . X O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X X X O O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


1 point gote yet again, I do believe.
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Offline lightvector
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #450 Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:27 pm 
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robinz wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm257 Prisoner Count :w35: :b13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O O . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X X O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . O X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . X . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . . X O O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | 1 O X X X . . X X O . O X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . X O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X X X O O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


1 point gote yet again, I do believe.


I think it's sente, and 2/3 of a point (comparable in value to gote plays that are 4/3 pts swing). It would be intolerable if black could push again, because white ends up needing B13, so white needs to block. And after white blocks, black has reduced white by a point compared to if white played first, and then black can tenuki because it's only a 1/3 point ko remaining where black's stone is one-third captured.
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Offline 1986
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #451 Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:19 am 
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[go]$$Wcm258 Prisoner Count :w35: :b13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O O X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O O . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X X O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . O X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . X . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | 1 O X , X . . . X O O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | X O X X X . . X X O . O X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . X O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X X X O O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


this move is automatic, by my manual count i should be about 6 points ahead plus komi

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Offline robinz
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #452 Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:57 am 
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I've had a change of heart about playing this endgame - I see no point in dragging this game out for a few more days. I resign - I can clearly no longer make any significant dent in your lead of about 7/8 points. Thankyou very much for the game :)

I'm sure we both made a lot of mistakes in this game - but it was an awful lot of fun. (I like fighting, although I like it more when it goes better for me :lol:) I should never have let you get that ko in the lower right - that ultimately cost me the game, I think - one major reading fail and I could never come back.

Thanks again for the game. Now I am looking forward to reading the mountain of comments made by oberservers - thanks all in advance for all the good advice I'm sure I'm going to read :D (I'm particularly intrigued by all these comments towards the game when I thought the result was basically never in doubt - I am prepared to do a headdesk if it turns out I've missed some obvious way to make back a lot of points...)
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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #453 Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:00 pm 
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Thanks for the game, guys.

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Offline Marcus
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #454 Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:12 pm 
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Good Game.

Don't worry, robinz, some of those comments were stronger players counting the board. (I did it for practice, for instance).
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Offline EdLee
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Post #455 Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:03 pm 
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Good work, both of you. :)
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Offline 1986
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #456 Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:49 pm 
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Great game buddy & thank you

robinz- you are a amazing fighter! i can feel your spirit in this game and it was relentless, i'd like to play again sometime after my schedule gets a little more sane
:rambo:

im going to read the entire thread and study my mistakes, i already know my worst mistake was the big ugly group on the right side of the board, and not looking at every possible move

well its time to study
:study:

c ya around :salute:

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Offline ez4u
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #457 Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:37 pm 
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Congratulations to both of you. This has been a great game to watch and discuss - from start to finish!
:tmbup: :clap: :tmbup: :clap: :tmbup: :clap:

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Offline robinz
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #458 Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:09 pm 
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Well, I'm glad we gave you strong players something interesting to rip apart :D Seriously, having just glanced through the comments, thanks to all, ez4u and topazg in particular, for some great analysis - not all of which I was able to take in at first glance. But I understood enough to be kicking myself at missing my chance in that final fight in the lower-left :oops:

I also find it interesting that, through much of the middlegame, we seem to have both thought we were behind :lol: It seems the concensus was that I was ahead at that point, so I clearly need to work on my counting (based on the count I gave in response to Mnemonic at about this point, after correcting myself, it seems the game was actually pretty level - which of course makes my talk of resignation ridiculous, but also doesn't suggest that 1986 needed to do anything desparate either).

And finally, to Ed and Kirby: if I'd known you were keen for the game to end in an actual score then I wouldn't have resigned. To be honest I should really have resigned right after the last ko fight ended when I indicated that I felt I ought to, but we'll see if my endgame play from then on was worthy of any "nice notes" from Ed (although I doubt it ;-)). I guess I should have tried the 3-3 in the upper left, but it honestly didn't even occur to me, white's corner looked just so solid - in a real life game I might try something like that when behind just to see what happens, but it seems kind of disrespectful in a Malkovich game.

Anyway - I'm glad we managed to entertain the observers. 1986: I'd be more than happy to play another Malkovich against you, although I think I need a bit of a breather first. And I can't promise the next game will be as entertaining as this one...
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Offline EdLee
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Post #459 Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:10 pm 
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robinz,
robinz wrote:
if I'd known you were keen for the game to end in an actual score
No, no, that was for your benefit, not for us. :) And 3-3 was also for you guys -- with no time limit, at least you had a chance to do a perfect life-and-death,
for both B and W; even if B had no chance to live, at least W had to have played every move correctly -- so it was for you. :)
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Offline perceval
 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #460 Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:02 pm 
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:clap:
one of the most entertaining malkovitch i ve seen.
Probably because we are close in level and i really felt crushed by the gigantic mess you mutually put yourself into; it would have given me nightmares to play this game with all the dan level hidden comments between each moves

and also, a lot of back and forth and suspens

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