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Offline zinger
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #21 Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 7:12 am 
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topazg wrote:
Yeah, I figured White wouldn't play that with Black's stone moved away, forcing himself through the gap like that isn't necessary now, but I was trying not to say until they'd played out

My White 10:

The only move I think:

Go Diagram
Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 O 4 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If white is really stubborn he could try:

Go Diagram
Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Which may be an overplay but not a huge one.

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #22 Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 7:21 am 
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Yeah, that one could be fun too ... ok, only move was clearly an exaggeration on my part :D
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #23 Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 7:27 am 
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topazg wrote:
Yeah, I figured White wouldn't play that with Black's stone moved away, forcing himself through the gap like that isn't necessary now, but I was trying not to say until they'd played out

My White 10:

The only move I think:

Go Diagram
Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 O 4 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Yeah, I think so, too. :)

However, the atari is, I think, a common mistake at the level of the game. I made my comment because I was worried that your diagram would suggest it. I don't think that your equivocal comments really counteract the suggestion. A picture is worth 1000 words.

Edit: Not to worry. :) From his comment, Chew Terr seems to be channeling Magicwand. ;)

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Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Fri May 14, 2010 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #24 Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 7:46 am 
Gosei
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Wow, when I went to sleep, things got busy around here!

Go Diagram
W8 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 W8 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Short of sacrificing my corner stone immediately, I pretty much need to play here for now. As for what's next, I'm not entirely decided on my best path. Obviously it depends on if black cuts. Assuming he does, here's what I'm looking at.

Go Diagram
I need to read this some more to see how I think it'll turn out.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 I need to read this some more to see how I think it'll turn out.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


I'm pretty sure that 5 at B16 crashes and burns, from what I've read. Thank you, Bill, for reminding us to beware convenient ataris. I had originally thought to atari at F15 in my first diagram, but it accomplishes nothing.

Go Diagram
This looks a little less complicated, but equally scary.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 This looks a little less complicated, but equally scary.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O 3 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


While I'm thinking that both could turn out okay for me, I am leaning towards the second. The ladder threat against the cutting stone gives me the chance to nab fighting room, which appeals. I'll let ya'all know if I think of anything else.

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Offline mic
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #25 Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 11:11 am 
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Go Diagram
Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Like already mentioned, I have to cut here under all circumstances.

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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #26 Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 11:22 am 
Gosei
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Go Diagram
Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O W . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As I said before, this is the option that I was considering that is simpler. The ladder threat lets me get a move in first in the corner, so it looks good.

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Offline mic
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #27 Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 2:28 am 
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Hello,

since I thought about a lot of variations and am quite lazy to write them all down I'll just embed the corresponding SGF here. If it seems to be too much of a hassle for our fellow readers, I'll write down my moves and variations in the conventional way.

Summarizing, I think that with :bc: the position becomes more or less equal (even though I see a slightly better position for white).

Go Diagram
Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #28 Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 2:58 am 
Tengen
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mic wrote:
Go Diagram
Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A nice active way of dealing with the ladder while reducing White liberties. It leaves open the option of cutting directly if White blocks too, because the cutting stone will break the ladder towards the lower right (and the ladder towards the left already works for Black). That doesn't lead to any simple lines either, but it's worth remembering that it's a partial ladder breaker ;)
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Offline mic
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #29 Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 3:02 am 
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Hi Graham,

topazg wrote:
It leaves open the option of cutting directly if White blocks too, because the cutting stone will break the ladder towards the lower right (and the ladder towards the left already works for Black).

Could you elaborate on that? I'm pretty sure I am misunderstanding something here...


Quote:
That doesn't lead to any simple lines either

I think that is the fate of all Malkovich games, open or not ;-)


Cheers,
Mic

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #30 Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 3:49 am 
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mic wrote:
topazg wrote:
It leaves open the option of cutting directly if White blocks too, because the cutting stone will break the ladder towards the lower right (and the ladder towards the left already works for Black).

Could you elaborate on that? I'm pretty sure I am misunderstanding something here...


Sure, cutting breaks the following ladder...

Go Diagram
Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O 2 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X B 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And this one is already good for Black:

Go Diagram
Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O 2 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X B 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline mic
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #31 Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 4:03 am 
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topazg wrote:
Sure, cutting breaks the following ladder...

insightful explanations inserted here

Ah, thanks. For some reason I missed it.

- Mic

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #32 Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 4:07 am 
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mic wrote:
Ah, thanks. For some reason I missed it.

- Mic


I'm not saying you should cut mind you, it looks like a very complicated read to me and I've genuinely no idea if it is overplay or not, but it's a common crosscut shape and a useful general principle :)
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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: White 11
Post #33 Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 8:29 am 
Gosei
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Go Diagram
Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Okay, to be honest, I hadn't really considered this move by black very much. My instinct with cross-cuts is either ataris or pinwheels, which is a blind spot I need to work on. I had expected black to pressure my stones to the left, but this move is sharp, with its pressure on my top stones. The worst part (from my perspective) is that I don't have a move to spare for those stones, without giving up the fight in the corner. If I let black have sente once, he will play somewhere (anywhere) around B17, which will either give him life outright or will give him enough liberties to fight handily.

So, let's consider how to attack, and see if I CAN win the fight here. If not, I'll try to find the most beneficial way to give it up.
Okay, obviously the weak spot that I have right now is those two top stones, because that's what black chose to pressure. Any fight here will be dependent on the liberties of those two stones. Let's look at the move I was considering before, B17. It doesn't reduce black's liberties, but it blocks black off while giving stability to my left stones.

Go Diagram
Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 3 6 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . X 4 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O 2 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Okay, this is looking awfully tight. Again we're in a position where we have to play on the left or let black get life. Let's see what happens if we keep the pressure on and do that. Our top group is gasping, so it's certainly looking scary.
Go Diagram
Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm10 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X o X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X X O O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X 4 . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

First, if black plays 8 at 9 :w9: , I think I can squeeze out and be okay. Either I'll activate a ladder to kill G16 or I'll get in a play at :b8: to kill the corner.
Okay, from here black would have two options. First, he could connect, let me run along the second line, and fight it out. Second, I'm seeing a threat that he would let me capture, connect underneath, and squeeze me into bad shape. Check it out.
Go Diagram
White 17 fills
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm14 White 17 fills
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O 1 a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X X O O X 8 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X O 5 , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

From here, I was surprised to see that things don't look horrible. Black will either pay on the left or the right. It looks to me that I will either be able to play on the right to kill the top group, or I can play a nose tesuji at b. The nose tesuji will kill 20, either in a ladder if black plays F13 or will crush it against the western wall if not. This wouldn't be amazing for white, because black's thickness faces its corner as a good extension and white's thickness could be mostly neutralized by black C9. However, it seems playable enough if necessary. This whole sequence likely wouldn't come off exactly as shown. Take it with a lot of Morton's: I'm just not good enough to read that accurately. However, I intend it as a study of the liberties of these groups versus the amount of pressure they can exert. If both sides push as hard as they can, my stones at F16 can probably live long enough to let me get something out of it.

Okay, I know I've put a million diagrams and been super-wordy, but I'm trying to put a lot of thought into this so I'm just trying to show my work.

One last thing I want to look at: I'm not sure I buy mic's diagram for C17 (He ignores an atari), so I want to check it out.
Go Diagram
Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 X O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 6 O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Nah, this doesn't go anywhere. It's a shame, when I looked at his move, that was my first instinct.


Okay, so my decision. Since the first hidden section shows I CAN keep fighting (unless I'm missing a brilliant move that kills me), so let's keep fighting. While my reading's unreliable, I feel like I'll get SOMETHING out of it, so it's better than just sacrificing one of my groups or letting black make me into two running weak groups, which is what playing on the outside would do. I looked at other local moves, like hitting the nose of his top group (stupid Anakin's voice is stuck in my head now), but I think my groups are too weak to pull it off. Every move I come back to seems just a little less safe than C17. Let's fight. If worst comes to worst, I'll lose both groups somehow, resign, and we can start fresh. The lesson I learned from Ogre Battle: "FIGHT IT OUT".

Thanks, by the way, to all observers who have commented. The comments are helpful, and hopefully I can train myself to see that sort of thing after seeing it in my game here. Speak up with any questions, or tell me to show less diagrams and such, as you prefer.

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #34 Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 8:32 am 
Tengen
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This one kind of should be hidden as it is way too spoilery, and it will affect the top left fight:

Go Diagram
Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm12 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . X a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O 2 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Just because "a" cuts off that last move doesn't mean that you should automatically play it. Black can do better than "a" for 15, such as the following:

The key point in White's shape:

Go Diagram
Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm12 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O 2 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White's only hope is to crawl, which doesn't work either:

Go Diagram
Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm12 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 8 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . X . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O 2 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #35 Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 8:34 am 
Gosei
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Ah ha, my fatal blunder is pointed out. If you recommend it, I'll not read that hidden section.

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #36 Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 8:38 am 
Tengen
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Chew Terr wrote:
Ah ha, my fatal blunder is pointed out. If you recommend it, I'll not read that hidden section.


I recommend neither of you do :)

I'll let you know when it isn't relevant any more...
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Offline mic
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #37 Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 10:12 am 
Lives with ko
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topazg wrote:
I recommend neither of you do :)

I'll let you know when it isn't relevant any more...

Ok, I won't do it either.

@Chew: Your thorough analysis scared me :) I had to really think about my next move, so I hope it's ok when I response tomorrow.

- mic

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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #38 Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 11:16 am 
Gosei
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mic wrote:
@Chew: Your thorough analysis scared me :) I had to really think about my next move, so I hope it's ok when I response tomorrow.
- mic

Of course, no problem. And don't let it intimidate you, I just KNOW it's riddled with flaws. If I figure out any horrible things that I missed, I'll let you know.

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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #39 Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 1:45 pm 
Honinbo

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I will unhide this soon. :)

Go Diagram
Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O 1 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Once you have learned shape, this is pretty much a no brainer. :)

White has only three liberties, and a Black play at 11 would be a very good move.


Edit: Unhidden. :)

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Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Sat May 22, 2010 1:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline mic
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #40 Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 10:24 am 
Lives with ko
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Hello,

Go Diagram
Prisoners: B=0, W=0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O B . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Quite a short analysis: Black must play at :bc:, since all other variations leave the two-stone group with too few liberties. And I really hope I didn't messed up :D

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Board index » L19²GO (Malkovich) » 1-on-1 Malkovich games

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