Light sabaki invasion

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Dazz
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Re: Light sabaki invasion

Post by Dazz »

Kirby wrote:
Numsgil wrote:
Uberdude wrote:Proverbs are all just shortcuts to avoid reading, and for positions like this reading truly is king.


I think rather proverbs help formulate a plan (hypothesis), and reading shows if it'll work or not (experimentation). Sort of like a scientific method (hypothesis before experiment).

If you're at a point where you can form plans ex nihilo, you don't need proverbs.


That's probably a good analogy. Maybe it is less limiting when you get to the point where you can make your own hypotheses from experience, independently of proverbs...


I think we will find that our experience leads us to the proverbs rather than to independence from them. It makes me think of these few lines from a T.S. Eliot poem:

We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.

I think all of our experience, exploration, and ideas gleaned from others, will lead us to arrive again at a proverb and see it in a new light. My experience in my own games so far is minimal. All my ideas on where and how to play have been taken from others for the most part - mostly from books and stronger players. All of the great players stand on the shoulders of many others who have come before them. Look at how much Shusaku's games have been studied by those who came after him. I think the proverbs are a distillation of all this experience and act as sign posts to guide us in finding the best play.
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Re: Light sabaki invasion

Post by mlund »

In terms of direction, what about focusing on reduction that creates a white wall on the right in sente? It seems profitable considering the 2-stone group on the left. If you keep sente and then address that group it looks like a miserable game for Black. He either lives small on the side and gives you facing walls or he pops up and you chase him across the middle into the wall you've just laid out. Until you develop that right-side wall, though, doesn't running out into the center favor Black?

It seems like coming away from that reduction holding sente wins White the game if Black meekly follows along, so does that mean Black leaves the door open and tries to initiate a chase that destroys the center instead?

A lot of this is over my head, but I'd love to have the reasoning explained to me! It seems like at this point in the game an invasion or reduction in that area can't be played "lightly" in the sense that the stones placed there can not be discarded flexibly. Isn't it the last big move on the board in a very even game with very secure positions for both sides?

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Re: Light sabaki invasion

Post by Numsgil »

At least in the topic title by "light" I mean an attitude towards individual stones and not anything about the larger position specifically. I think the timing is approximately right for white to try and break up black points on the right side; he needs some stones there. But he doesn't mind giving up a few stones if black presses him strongly. Black is already strong in the area, after all, so all white is aiming for is a presence (to make sabaki with some stones in that region).

Building a center facing wall to run black's weak group towards sounds good in theory, but the center is very open. I don't see how white could sustain an attack all the way across the center of the board. Maybe white can run black's group towards the top and force it to connect up. Then white has a center facing wall and can use that to support something on the right? Still begs the question of how to invade the right, of course.
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Re: Light sabaki invasion

Post by Loons »

A bit tangential.
Ignoring the request to ignore the board:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | e l o . . . . x . . t h i r t y . . . |
$$ | e v o . . . x . . . t h r e e . . . . |
$$ | e n . O . . X x x . x X x x X . . . . |
$$ | . . o . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . x . . |
$$ | o o . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x x |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . x x |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . x t t |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . x w w |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . e o |
$$ | o o . o . . . . . . . . . O . x . n . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O o o . . . X . t . |
$$ | . . . . O o o O o . . . o O . X . y . |
$$ | . . . . t h i r t y . . o . . x x . . |
$$ | . . . . f i v e . . . . o . . . x . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The board is menacing to count, I think, but to actually play on this board counting seems important. This is my hazard at a useful count. (While playing, just draw the lines in your head).

Both players have big moyos with so many low stones I think they can be counted as territory. The focus of the game is now for the players to expand their own moyo into the centre, and/while ruining their opponent's centre. For this reason I feel a desire to live along the right here is misplaced.
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Re: Light sabaki invasion

Post by Numsgil »

Loons wrote:A bit tangential.
Ignoring the request to ignore the board:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | e l o . . . . x . . t h i r t y . . . |
$$ | e v o . . . x . . . t h r e e . . . . |
$$ | e n . O . . X x x . x X x x X . . . . |
$$ | . . o . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . x . . |
$$ | o o . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x x |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . x x |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . x t t |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . x w w |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . e o |
$$ | o o . o . . . . . . . . . O . x . n . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O o o . . . X . t . |
$$ | . . . . O o o O o . . . o O . X . y . |
$$ | . . . . t h i r t y . . o . . x x . . |
$$ | . . . . f i v e . . . . o . . . x . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The board is menacing to count, I think, but to actually play on this board counting seems important. This is my hazard at a useful count. (While playing, just draw the lines in your head).

Both players have big moyos with so many low stones I think they can be counted as territory. The focus of the game is now for the players to expand their own moyo into the centre, and/while ruining their opponent's centre. For this reason I feel a desire to live along the right here is misplaced.


Black's up on solid territory a bit probably, but white has a proto moyo going in the center that isn't that far off from becoming something dreadful for black to deal with. But so does black on the right. But black also has that two stone group on the left to deal with. And then there's komi and white's sente. So I think the board is pretty even at the end of the day, both in terms of territory and influence. I wouldn't mind taking black or white, really.

Whether to invade or not is a strategic decision I was trying to avoid in the thread. I think with the given board it's purely down to a question of style. Black has a semi weak group but it's not clear that white can attack it profitably just yet (though I don't think trying would be wrong. For black's part, I think he could even consider sacrificing the two stones on the edge if he can get some aji for them). White doesn't have any weak groups, so there's nothing to defend and no reason not to create a new one. We could say that both players are working on whole board moyos, which would indicate a play on the pivot of moyos would be big, but it's not clear to me that that was the aim of either player since they're playing all the low 3rd line stones. It leaves a lot of areas for reduction. So a moyo pivot would be playable but I don't think it's the only move either. So I think we can say that an invasion is a viable strategic choice. Or at least, there's no really compelling reason to throw the option out for strategic reasons.

And then the question comes round to how to do that, which is all tactics, which is what I was aiming for in the thread. Attaching to a lone stone is a tactic I've seen in a few games, and even used myself, but it often feels a bit opaque to figure out probable results and decide what's good or not.
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Re: Light sabaki invasion

Post by Celebrir »

Maybe I have another intresting board from a recent game of mine:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Another game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . b , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black started with :bc: which irritated me but it doesn't seem so bad now. I guess going after pure opening theory 'a' would be the move to do. However, I decided that it's time to invade the black framework and choose :w1: Playing at 'b' seemed like walking into B's trap for me. However, I'm sure there would have been other moves which are much better ;) And I'm sure even the timing of the invasion is wrong but it seems like a nice position to search a good move to invade lightly.
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