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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #201 Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:13 pm 
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Approved. I can haz another correction nao plz?

I prefer defending the corner, I think, but this separates a black stone and ensures that black won't make a lot of points here, so I can live with it. I don't think we'll have many points in the corner now, we'll have to make it up on the bottom.

I've thought of a way to value the corrections via an exponential function. So the first one is worth about 2 points and the 10th one is worth 50 or more. This might help me decide what's worth changing.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #202 Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:28 pm 
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Ahhh...they fall into the trap...they make a splitting attack toward our wall and leave the corner undefended. :twisted:

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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #203 Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:57 pm 
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Phelan wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm45 Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=6 - 0 , W=3 - 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . X . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . W . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Difficult move to reply to...Do I treat it as an approach on the corner and protect it, leaving black to develop a moyo, or do I try to hinder the moyo and leave the corner open for invasion?
Let's try going for the moyo.
[Chew mod edit: fixed this hide tag]

for obs only:
i like way he played. defending the corner is very passive in my opinion.
what he played is actually defending the corner and same time cutting down the moyo developed in the middle.
professional play in my opinion.

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #204 Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:30 pm 
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I agree with magicwand. I think this is a very interesting move too. Black cannot easily play in the corner and expect a good result, as he'll have two-ish groups to White's one.

In the corner I prefer C17 to C16 for White. We'll see what Black does.
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Offline gaius
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #205 Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:43 pm 
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Wow. Joaz Banbeck's corrections never cease to amaze me. I personally think that in both of those cases Phelan's move was clearly superior. I might be wrong, but damn, what a way to waste two valuable rescue opportunities later on! Let's hope for Phelan's sake that they will not lose the game in a tricky semeai due to having 0 corrections...

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Offline Aphelion
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #206 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:37 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm45 Prisoners: :white: 0, :black: 0 Corrections: B=6 - 0 , W=3 - 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . B , O . X . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm45
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . b , O . X . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't like this move. I don't like any of our moves. I think the bottom is getting big, and I would play my original attachment again, but then I think that would make our last move pointless. When Joaz tenukied from the cap he indicated that it was a light stone, a probe to make White choose one side. White took the top, so logically we should take the 3-4 point and steal the corner away from him. But instead we played a move that *should* prompt White to solidify the corner. The way I see it the top is small, with little prospect of territory for either side. So essentially, I am still in the dark as to Joaz's intentions, which means that I might cost us yet another correction....

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm45
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . b , O . X . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . d . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm basically playing the numbers game here. To be honest I feel that 'a' this is the worse move compared to 'b' , but it is the most logical continuation of our previous plays. It also means that after invading the corner, I will still be uncertain of Joaz's intentions regarding the bottom, so I will need every correction I can get. However, if Joaz next corrects this moves and turns to the bottom, I'd at least have a better strategic sense for our continuations. Then a correction might not hurt as much.

I'm quite worried if White takes sente some how (or just directly tenukis) and gets a move like 'c' or 'd'. In fact, I smell a major fight looming, and corrections are going to be worth their weight in gold. These few moves are the most important ones of the game, and this also happens to be the point in the game where I am most confused. I really need to figure out what Joaz is thinking soon, or we could be in deep trouble...
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #207 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:31 pm 
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I approve.

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Offline Aphelion
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #208 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:12 pm 
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damnit

This post by Aphelion was liked by: robinz
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Offline Phelan
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #209 Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:53 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm46 Prisoners: :white: 0, :black: 0 Corrections: B=6 - 1 , W=3 - 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . X . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ouch. I was expecting it, but still... I should have already had a plan in place to deal with this invasion.
The normal response to a pincer would be to jump out, but here it looks weak and overconcentrated:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm46 Normally...
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . B , O . X . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 a 1 . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It also gives away too much of the corner and side for my liking.

I could try to get the corner, but I'm not sure Black will play this sequence, and I don't know this joseki that well.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm46 Alternatively
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . 1 3 5 . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X 2 O . B . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 6 . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't think the influence they get is worth as much as the corner here.

I could go for the side, but again I'm not sure of the sequences:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm46 Alternatively 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . 4 6 . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X 2 O . B . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . 1 3 5 . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Not bad? I don't know. I still don't like the huge amount of territory black just got.

Both of these leave the marked black stone completely safe. I wanted to threaten it somehow...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm46 Weak Threats
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . d e a . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X . O . B . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . c f b . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

All of the moves I would normally use to threaten it seem too weak here, though. So it can't be attacked right now.

I think I'm going with the corner,and see what happens.

Edit: Daniel, I hope this game is being less frustrating than the other BB game. :P

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Offline Aphelion
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #210 Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:11 am 
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Daniel, its to you.

Trigger:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm46 If accepted
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . 2 1 . . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . X . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #211 Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:08 pm 
Judan
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I approve of Aphelion's trigger. In other words, if Daniel approves of W46, we play B47 as indicated, and Phelan it is your play again.

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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #212 Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:29 am 
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Sorry guys, I was thinking about this one.

I guess I'll approve it...

I'm not really a fan of this move but it's hard to find anything better. And I guess I should only fix large mistakes anyway, and this isn't a large one, if a mistake at all...

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Offline Phelan
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #213 Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:31 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm46 Prisoners: :white: 0, :black: 0 Corrections: B=6 - 1 , W=3 - 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . X O W . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . X . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Not sure what to say here. "This is joseki."?

It's definitely not as good as the sequence I mentioned before.
Black will then play either a or b.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm46 Joseki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . X O W . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . X . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . a . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #214 Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:50 pm 
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Offline Aphelion
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #215 Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:07 pm 
Lives in sente
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm47 Prisoners: :white: 0, :black: 0 Corrections: B=6 - 2 , W=4 - 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . X . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . B . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Here's the plan. :b3: takes away a good chunk of the side and brings :bc: to life.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . X . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . B . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Edit: Fixed corrections, White gets incremented to 4.
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #216 Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:36 pm 
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I approve.

It's good to be thinking along the same lines as my teammate again.

In addfition to his diagram, we have this posibility:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 2 4 . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . X . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . 1 . . 5 . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Or this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . X . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . 1 . . 3 . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


BTW, if white ever tries to strengthen his K-file stones to go after our G16 stone, our natural defence includes an attack on the upper right. After black 4, white must defend his corner or 'a' kills:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 2 O O a . . . X . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . 1 X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . # . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . B . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So G16 is stronger than it appears.

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Offline Phelan
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #217 Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:49 pm 
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Quote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm47 Prisoners: :white: 0, :black: 0 Corrections: B=6 - 2 , W=4 - 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . X . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . B . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . W . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Ok, this one is not joseki (as far as I know)...but the corner seems small and our group can run easily, so I'll try taking the rest of the side we can still get.

...was what I was going to post. I just saw Black E14, though. I'll think it over and post a move tomorrow.

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Offline Phelan
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #218 Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:09 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm48 Prisoners: :white: 0, :black: 0 Corrections: B=6 - 3 , W=4 - 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . X . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I first considered B13, as you can see in the post above. But E14 screws that up:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm49 Black E14
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . X . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . X . 3 4 . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 1 5 . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . W . 6 . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm49 Black E14
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . X . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . X . . 4 3 . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 1 2 . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . W . . . 6 . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



So I started considering alternatives that also keep the side for us:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm49 Alternative 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . X . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Not good enough.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm49 Alternative 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . X . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . X . 1 2 . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . W 3 . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Also not good enough.

So, I see no effective way to keep the side without fighting it out with Black, and I don't think it the fight is worth it, after that exchange in the top right.

That means we have to either live locally, or jump out, before trying to limit Black's potential in the left.

So I'll change the focus to the other side:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm49 Other side 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . X . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . X . . 2 1 . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 5 3 W . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Also not good.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm49 Other side 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . X . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . W . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This one seems too mild.

Maybe living locally?


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm49 Alternative 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . X . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . a 1 . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hmm, forcing black to play 49 or a seems interesting, since we can put some pressure on their group while building a wall to the left. I think I'll go with that.
Daniel, feel free to choose a fighting alternative if you see a good line.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #219 Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:48 pm 
Judan
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I don't think that Daniel will let this go. If he does, they lose sente if they play 'a', or give us easy life if we play it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | c . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 2 1 a . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . X . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . d . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

They could play 'b', with an eye toward the ko at 'c', but we have lots of threats over in the top right.

So I think they need something like 'd'.

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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #220 Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:56 pm 
Gosei
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Sorry, still thinking about this.
I don't like this move, it's not in an important area of the board. I'd like to tenuki, but can I?

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